2022-23 Flyers: How about just less suck?

[lasgop8]

I don't think I'd do the deal either. Would prefer the Prov/Meier deal than giving up picks/prospects for him though for sure.

But I think Meier falls in the same bucket with TK. It's a little bit different because he'd be signing that next deal now, at 26, whereas TK would be signing it in 2.5 years when he's 28. So while you probably waste the first few years on a not-contending Flyers team, you don't have as much on the 30+ side of it where the deal sees diminishing returns.

That being said, if there was a role (outside of goalie) that the Flyers look pretty decent in, it's the power forward / scorer type guy. Tippet and Allison are looking pretty good. Gauthier is coming and could end up on the wing too. Foerster maybe falls in that category. Those guys might not be Meier-level, but the Flyers do have a few of that style. The Flyers need playmakers and speed right now IMO. And they need to sort out the defense.

I disagree. The Prov for Meir deal would kill 3 birds with one stone only if its a sign and trade. Getting Meir frees us up to trade TK for a top tier player with speed that we need and wed also get younger and getting rid of Prov cures some of our salary paid to our defensive core.

I really disagree with putting Allisons name in the same relm as Tippet TK and Meir and Guathier.

 

[lasgop8]

- Yahoo Sports

www.yahoo.com

 

[awaz]

I disagree. The Prov for Meir deal would kill 3 birds with one stone only if its a sign and trade. Getting Meir frees us up to trade TK for a top tier player with speed that we need and wed also get younger and getting rid of Prov cures some of our salary paid to our defensive core.

I really disagree with putting Allisons name in the same relm as Tippet TK and Meir and Guathier.

We'll probably just end up back at our usual draft vs trade/FA conversation here haha. But I don't think the Flyers need to be 'freed up' to move TK. The assets he could bring back, while maybe just the dreaded potential, should be worth it in the long run. Assuming they didn't completely botch the move. Which of course is a big assumption.

Ya, Allison for sure is not the caliber of player as those guys. And really, outside of TK, none of those guys are Meier's caliber. Maybe Gauthier someday. I'm just saying Allison, Tippet, Meier, Gauthier have a similar style. Allison is for sure the worst at it lol.

 

[lasgop8]

The Flyers are in cap hell–does it actually matter?

The team is capped out and the next few years look bleak, but the lack of cap space might not be a major issue after all.

www.broadstreethockey.com

 

[Maverick426h]

The problem that I have is that the 10 game losing streak isn't really an aberration. They've had 3 of them in the last what, 16 months? And for two of them the team was significantly more talented (I think they had healthy Couturier/Atkinson, plus Giroux). The evidence that it was an aberration is 1 month of 10-4-2 hockey. Based on the last few years at least, it's the 10-4-2 run that looks like the aberration. Yes, Torts makes a big difference. Yes, the players are bringing a different mentality. But for me, I just don't see how they go from that 21-21-9 hockey team, to a cup contender. Can Torts squeeze enough out of this roster that they're a 7-8 seed level team on a semi-regular basis? I'll say yes. He's got them trending the right direction. But I don't see how he gets this group to cup contender status. And without some dramatic moves, the prospect/cap situation has Fletcher handcuffed to bring in difference makers.

And I'm just not a believer in "once you get in, who knows what can happen" as a plan. Over the last 8 years, the cup champ was in the top 4 in preseason odds 7 out of 8 seasons. And the top two in 4 out of 8. I'm not interested in pinning my hopes to a dark horse run like the Blues in 2019. It's like catching lightning in a bottle. They basically had one kick at the can and they happened to hit. It's not a way to build a hockey team.

2022 - Avs, preseason #1 odds
2021 - Bolts, preseason #2 odds
2020 - Bolts, preseason #1 odds
2019 - Blues, preseason #14 odds
2018 - Caps, preseason #4 odds
2017 - Pens, preseason #4 odds
2016 - Pens, preseason #4 odds
2015 - Hawks, preseason #1 odds

So, for me, the Flyers need a dramatic infusion of talent. And IMO, the best way to do that is by pruning the roster and adding draft picks and prospects. For me, I'm moving Hayes and Risto for whatever I can get, if I can get anything. I'd stop short of adding assets just to be rid of them, but if it's mid round picks or mediocre prospects coming back, I'm doing it. They're bad contracts and the Flyers need to be rid of them. Provy of course demands a good return. But from most of the reports lately, he's not looking like a part of the future culture/fit wise. So even if it's not a 'blow you away' return, I still probably move him. TK/Laughton need to be 'blow you away' returns. To me, those guys can embody what the Flyers want to build. I'll stop short of saying they're franchise cornerstones because I don't think they're talented enough for that, but unless everyone reacts in a "holy shit what a steal for the Flyers" way, I'm not moving those guys right now. But I'm hoping TK keeps it up for another 12 months so at the deadline next year he's #1 on everyone's trade board. I don't think his age/contract status lines up with the Flyers timeline, so I think you keep him as long as possible to help build the culture, but move him for a haul eventually.

I don't think it's fair to lump this team in with last season's team. They went 25-46-11. We lost 70% of our games. The whole fucking season was a losing streak...Lol It was a massive shit-show. Now we have a team that plays like a team, is pretty relentless, and despite a lack of talent/skill, they're continuously improving.

If you agree that Torts can regularly make the playoffs with this team, then we're a lot closer to the 10-4-2 team than we are the 10 game losing streak team. We're 21-21-9 and while nobody thinks this team is a Cup contender, I do think it would be beneficial to make the playoffs, especially if we somehow stole the 3rd spot in the division and avoided the top two seeds in round 1. I'm talking about the experience gained by a young team in making the playoffs and not having to face a top seed right away either.

Also, you make a few smart trades moving forward, get Couturier back, get Atkinson back and see what happens next season. I want to see this team healthy. Maybe we draft our next top pairing defenseman this summer. We have a lot of young talent within the franchise that can absolutely be elite if they develop properly.

Pruning the roster is one thing, but to trade away all of our Nhl talent and have a team full of youngsters I think would be a terrible move.

 

[lasgop8]

The Flyers have more than enough good forwards, both on their NHL club and in their prospect pool. What they desperately need is a great one, a player with star-level skill who can take over games and be the driving force on a Stanley Cup-contending club.

There’s no guarantee that Cutter Gauthier can reach that level. But he’s the one player in the prospect with that kind of upside.

Physically, Gauthier is one of the most impressive prospects in hockey. He’s a smooth-skating beast of a forward, capable of blasting through the neutral zone with the puck and blasting opposing players into the boards without it. He also possesses one of the best shots among current NHL prospects — he can beat goalies clean with his wrister or just straight-up overpower them with a one-timer. When netminders see Gauthier racing into the offensive zone with the puck, they’re on high alert. For good reason.Thus far at Boston College, Gauthier has thrived playing center full-time after a bit of a slow start. While there are still some who believe he’ll ultimately prove best suited to the wing in the NHL, the Flyers have every intention of developing him as a center, seeing him as a sniping pivot in the Jeff Carter or even Leon Draisaitl mold. Can he stick in the middle? Will he remain as dominant physically at the pro level as he has been everywhere else? And does he have the hockey sense to take full advantage of his enviable tools? Those are the questions remaining for Gauthier to face. But his impressive freshman season at BC has kept the hope alive that he just might become the star forward the Flyers need so badly. — Charlie

 

[lasgop8]

After dominating the NCAA with the University of Denver last season, Bobby Brink jumped straight into the NHL and did not look out of place. Not only did he flash his skills and put up four points in 10 games, he made a lot of the people who doubted his size and skating eat their words. Will he ever be Connor McDavid skating-wise? No. Will he ever be a power forward? No. But against the best that the world could offer he got to the dirty areas and was rarely left out of the play. It looked like he had made a strong early case to be in the Flyers’ opening night lineup for 2022-23.

However, injury struck. An offseason operation on a torn labrum in his hip meant that he played a grand total of zero games between the summer and the end of 2022. He returned in early January and has so far looked good, if unspectacular, in 10 games for the Phantoms, amassing six points in the process. He will likely see time with the Flyers later in the year, and should be a full-time NHLer in 2023-24. The combination of skills and smarts that Brink possesses keeps the possibility of high-end potential a real one — 70-point seasons in his NHL career are not out of the question if he continues to develop. — Alex

 

[Maverick426h]

A lot of our players have suddenly had career years under Torts. And so, I don't think it's crazy to expect Couturier to come back and be on pace for 80+ points easy. Atkinson is 33 and has played for Torts previously in his prime, so it's a little different, but I wouldn't be shocked if he goes for 30/30 next season. These are HUGE pieces to get back that would make the team a hell of a lot better over an 82 game season when healthy.

I'd really like an injury update on Couturier for THIS season even, just to know if/when we'll get a glance at him. I've been thinking all along that they are just waiting to tell us that they've shut him down AGAIN.

 

[awaz]

I don't think it's fair to lump this team in with last season's team. They went 25-46-11. We lost 70% of our games. The whole fucking season was a losing streak...Lol It was a massive shit-show. Now we have a team that plays like a team, is pretty relentless, and despite a lack of talent/skill, they're continuously improving.

If you agree that Torts can regularly make the playoffs with this team, then we're a lot closer to the 10-4-2 team than we are the 10 game losing streak team. We're 21-21-9 and while nobody thinks this team is a Cup contender, I do think it would be beneficial to make the playoffs, especially if we somehow stole the 3rd spot in the division and avoided the top two seeds in round 1. I'm talking about the experience gained by a young team in making the playoffs and not having to face a top seed right away either.

Also, you make a few smart trades moving forward, get Couturier back, get Atkinson back and see what happens next season. I want to see this team healthy. Maybe we draft our next top pairing defenseman this summer. We have a lot of young talent within the franchise that can absolutely be elite if they develop properly.

Pruning the roster is one thing, but to trade away all of our Nhl talent and have a team full of youngsters I think would be a terrible move.

I'll concede that they're somewhere in between the 10-4-2 team and the team that lost 70% of the games. But prior to the 10-4-2 hot streak, they were 11-17-7. Lost 68% of their games. So for 117 games they were a ~30% win-rate team. And for the last 16 games they've been a 62% win-rate team. I just have a hard time saying they're closer to this 10-4-2 team than they are to the 11-17-7 team. There's just so much evidence to the contrary.

And the problem is, they don't need to be close to this 10-4-2 team. They need to be better than it. Bruins are at 76% this season. The Panthers, Leafs, Canes, and Avalanche finished last year over 70%. There's just so much ground the Flyers need to make up. And I don't see a path to getting there. They don't have any cap space. IMO they have at best 1 'top of the lineup' guy in the prospect pool. Hopefully they add another this summer, but we'll see how long they take to crack the lineup. The rest of the guys are kind of more of the same. You might get a little better mix, like I think Brink brings a good dynamic even if he's a middle 6 guy because they need a playmaker.

So yes. Get Couturier and Atkinson back and the team obviously looks a good bit better. But what does a 'few smart trades' look like? They don't really have the future assets to make a big move. And they don't have the cap space to take on a big salary for pennies on the dollar return wise. A few good trades has to be just straight up fleecing someone for a young player on a cheap contract that someone gave up on too early and having them go Tage Thompson on you. And you probably need at least a couple of those deals, one up front and one on the backend. Not exactly high probability stuff we're looking at.

That's why I think they take their foot off the gas and go a different direction.

 

[Maverick426h]

I'll concede that they're somewhere in between the 10-4-2 team and the team that lost 70% of the games. But prior to the 10-4-2 hot streak, they were 11-17-7. Lost 68% of their games. So for 117 games they were a ~30% win-rate team. And for the last 16 games they've been a 62% win-rate team. I just have a hard time saying they're closer to this 10-4-2 team than they are to the 11-17-7 team. There's just so much evidence to the contrary.

And the problem is, they don't need to be close to this 10-4-2 team. They need to be better than it. Bruins are at 76% this season. The Panthers, Leafs, Canes, and Avalanche finished last year over 70%. There's just so much ground the Flyers need to make up. And I don't see a path to getting there. They don't have any cap space. IMO they have at best 1 'top of the lineup' guy in the prospect pool. Hopefully they add another this summer, but we'll see how long they take to crack the lineup. The rest of the guys are kind of more of the same. You might get a little better mix, like I think Brink brings a good dynamic even if he's a middle 6 guy because they need a playmaker.

So yes. Get Couturier and Atkinson back and the team obviously looks a good bit better. But what does a 'few smart trades' look like? They don't really have the future assets to make a big move. And they don't have the cap space to take on a big salary for pennies on the dollar return wise. A few good trades has to be just straight up fleecing someone for a young player on a cheap contract that someone gave up on too early and having them go Tage Thompson on you. And you probably need at least a couple of those deals, one up front and one on the backend. Not exactly high probability stuff we're looking at.

That's why I think they take their foot off the gas and go a different direction.

Really, I think this team should have more wins and be higher in the standings than it is. We've gone to OT 10 times and lost 9 of those games, which is ridiculous. That skews things like win and loss percentages by a lot. This however is another area of the game where Couturier and Atkinson would give us a real boost. Also, you don't play 3 on 3 or have shootouts in the playoffs. We're better at just playing a straight 5 on 5 game.

The 10 game losing streak this season should've never happened. We deserved to win a few of those games, for sure, but we repeatedly lost the skills competition. It is what it is.

Obviously JvR is soon to be gone. That clears $7 million in cap space. If Ellis remains on LTIR, that drops his $6.25 million. They'll probably find a way to sell high on Hayes and that unloads another $7.14 million. His modified no-trade clause is the only issue.

I mean, with as many young guys as we are dressing, there is going to be cap space.

The question really is, what can Torts do with Couturier/Atkinson back and another year of growth from our youngsters? Guys like Tippett, Farabee, York, Frost, Gauthier, Brink, Foerster etc. may or may not be future Nhl stars. We really don't know yet.

To further drive home the point of how impressive this edition of the Flyers has been, roughly 25% of our cap this season was spent on players who didn't even play. We should really be 30th, 31st or 32nd overall right now. Instead, we're 6 points south of Shitsburgh for the final playoff spot.

The next 11 games before the trade deadline should tell us a lot.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

 

[awaz]

Really, I think this team should have more wins and be higher in the standings than it is. We've gone to OT 10 times and lost 9 of those games, which is ridiculous. That skews things like win and loss percentages by a lot. This however is another area of the game where Couturier and Atkinson would give us a real boost. Also, you don't play 3 on 3 or have shootouts in the playoffs. We're better at just playing a straight 5 on 5 game.

The 10 game losing streak this season should've never happened. We deserved to win a few of those games, for sure, but we repeatedly lost the skills competition. It is what it is.

Obviously JvR is soon to be gone. That clears $7 million in cap space. If Ellis remains on LTIR, that drops his $6.25 million. They'll probably find a way to sell high on Hayes and that unloads another $7.14 million. His modified no-trade clause is the only issue.

I mean, with as many young guys as we are dressing, there is going to be cap space.

The question really is, what can Torts do with Couturier/Atkinson back and another year of growth from our youngsters? Guys like Tippett, Farabee, York, Frost, Gauthier, Brink, Foerster etc. may or may not be future Nhl stars. We really don't know yet.

To further drive home the point of how impressive this edition of the Flyers has been, roughly 25% of our cap this season was spent on players who didn't even play. We should really be 30th, 31st or 32nd overall right now. Instead, we're 6 points south of Shitsburgh for the final playoff spot.

The next 11 games before the trade deadline should tell us a lot.

That's where talent comes in to play though. The goal difference on a game basis is not huge between the cup contenders and the bottom feeders. The difference is, the cup contenders have the talent to come out on the right side of those close games most of the time. The ones that are missing the talent, come out on the wrong side of close games most of the time. The difference a lot of times is one killer shot. Or one killer defensive play. Typically made by those elite-level players. And the Flyers are missing them.

Next year they have 67M tied up. Including Hayes. Not including Ellis. Thats with 9 forwards, 5 dmen, and 2 goalies. Cap is supposed to be 83.5M. So they have 16.5M to spend and they need 4 forwards and 2 dmen. Tippet, Cates, Frost, and York presumably are 4 of those guys that are RFA. If those guys avg out to 2M each, you're down to 8.5M and in decent shape to sign a good player. But I think 2M each would be a heck of a job by Fletcher. Cates is playing 1st line minutes. York is playing 1st pair minutes. Tippet is scoring at a 25 goal pace. So how much further does that cut in to the space? You can move Hayes/Provorov to create some space, but that is 2 steps back for 3 steps forward if you can upgrade on them.

It just looks like long odds to me. And if they're unsuccessful, chances are they're making the rebuild worse and worse.

 

[lasgop8]

That's where talent comes in to play though. The goal difference on a game basis is not huge between the cup contenders and the bottom feeders. The difference is, the cup contenders have the talent to come out on the right side of those close games most of the time. The ones that are missing the talent, come out on the wrong side of close games most of the time. The difference a lot of times is one killer shot. Or one killer defensive play. Typically made by those elite-level players. And the Flyers are missing them.

Next year they have 67M tied up. Including Hayes. Not including Ellis. Thats with 9 forwards, 5 dmen, and 2 goalies. Cap is supposed to be 83.5M. So they have 16.5M to spend and they need 4 forwards and 2 dmen. Tippet, Cates, Frost, and York presumably are 4 of those guys that are RFA. If those guys avg out to 2M each, you're down to 8.5M and in decent shape to sign a good player. But I think 2M each would be a heck of a job by Fletcher. Cates is playing 1st line minutes. York is playing 1st pair minutes. Tippet is scoring at a 25 goal pace. So how much further does that cut in to the space? You can move Hayes/Provorov to create some space, but that is 2 steps back for 3 steps forward if you can upgrade on them.

It just looks like long odds to me. And if they're unsuccessful, chances are they're making the rebuild worse and worse.

You could add DeAngelos 5 million into our cap money as he should be traded either this year or over the summer as his value is at its highest right now.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

You could add DeAngelos 5 million into our cap money as he should be traded either this year or over the summer as his value is at its highest right now.

Either way Awaz is 100% right on about clearing cap space. Also I don't think you can sign the player's he mentioned for 8 or less. DeAngelo will help to, but then are you just replacing him with a similar DMan?

 

[awaz]

You could add DeAngelos 5 million into our cap money as he should be traded either this year or over the summer as his value is at its highest right now.

Yep, I'd agree with moving Deangelo. Shit, even if it's just to rid ourselves of the massive blemish of the Ghost fiasco. To go from Deangelo to Ghost they traded two 2nd rounders, a 3rd, and a 4th. Basically to go from a LH guy to a RH guy. Both at 5M-ish. Both don't really play defense. Both are good on the PP. And now they're considering moving Deangelo anyway. And the Coytoes are going to move Ghost for more assets . That fiasco alone should've costed Fletcher his job by now.

But I digress. Even without that, Deangelo is still a top 5 dman on the team. Moving him frees up cap space, but you still have to replace his spot in the lineup. IMO, the Flyers need to add top of the lineup guys that force Deslauriers, Brown, Seeler, types off the roster. That is what moves them towards cup contention. Removing guys like Hayes/Deangelo might help make you better, but the fact that you have to replace them too handicaps how much better you can actually make the team. And the cap space / prospect pool aren't there to add those top of the lineup guys.

Organizationally they're just in a bad spot right now to try to make a dramatic climb up the rankings.

 

[lasgop8]

Either way Awaz is 100% right on about clearing cap space. Also I don't think you can sign the player's he mentioned for 8 or less. DeAngelo will help to, but then are you just replacing him with a similar DMan?

We have Zamula or Andrae ready to come up.

 

[lasgop8]

Yep, I'd agree with moving Deangelo. Shit, even if it's just to rid ourselves of the massive blemish of the Ghost fiasco. To go from Deangelo to Ghost they traded two 2nd rounders, a 3rd, and a 4th. Basically to go from a LH guy to a RH guy. Both at 5M-ish. Both don't really play defense. Both are good on the PP. And now they're considering moving Deangelo anyway. And the Coytoes are going to move Ghost for more assets . That fiasco alone should've costed Fletcher his job by now.

But I digress. Even without that, Deangelo is still a top 5 dman on the team. Moving him frees up cap space, but you still have to replace his spot in the lineup. IMO, the Flyers need to add top of the lineup guys that force Deslauriers, Brown, Seeler, types off the roster. That is what moves them towards cup contention. Removing guys like Hayes/Deangelo might help make you better, but the fact that you have to replace them too handicaps how much better you can actually make the team. And the cap space / prospect pool aren't there to add those top of the lineup guys.

Organizationally they're just in a bad spot right now to try to make a dramatic climb up the rankings.

First paragraph
Second paragraph we have Zamula and Andrae to step up
Last sentence Hextall destroyed this organization for years and Fletcher tried a couple hail marys to look like he did something and made it worse.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

We have Zamula or Andrae ready to come up.

If that's the case then I'd like to see them sooner than later.

 

[lasgop8]

If that's the case then I'd like to see them sooner than later.

Same here hopefully we get rid of two of three at the deadline Sanheim Prov DeAngelo from our defense. Braun will be gone too.

 

[Retroram52]

I have a question. The whole Ranger team chose not wear their pride jerseys and rainbow taped sticks the other night. Why haven't we heard a peep about that and when Prov decided to skip warm ups it was a so called national disgrace according to all media outlets that covers hockey?

The difference is, lasgop8, that Provolov has long made it known in public that his faith is Russian Orthodox Christian and the dumbass, shitferbrains, woke media HATE Christians. The Rangers did what they did but did not make known their motivations for their actions. So the woke douchebags went after Provolov because he stated was a Russian Christian like they always do and they could care less if it looks hypocritical.