2021 NBA regular season thread

[msgkings322]

It doesn’t matter.

Because he was great so many times the hypothetical is irrelevant.

I can see that, Jackson is one we can call great (along with Pop, Riley, Brown, those are my "Mt. Rushmore")

 

[tlance]

Maybe he struggles with stars egos? When he has average-below average talent, like the Clippers before Kawhi and PG, he seems to do a good job. But when he's had actual stars that you could win a title with (Celtics, Clippers with CP3 and Blake, Clippers with Kawi and PG) he has underachieved (1 title).

But, he has the Sixers, who have contending talent, playing like they could win the title.

I really don’t think Doc underachieved with the Celtics.

They spilt 1-1 with an equally good Laker team, then they ran into the LeBron Heat as their core was starting to age out of contention anyway.

The only real blemish was 2009

 

[Wamu]

You're misunderstanding me. Obviously the players play, the coaches don't win without players. But does it matter who the coach is, if those great players are out there? Switch Daly with Jackson, or Spo with Pop, does it change the outcomes?

And that's my point about Larry Brown, Billups etc were the only team to win a ring without a HOFer. Brown took lesser talent and won titles (in both the NCAA and NBA) and got Iverson and a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.

Brown is GOAT because I don't know that Jackson or Riley or the rest would have his success with the players he had.

So I guess I'm asking you, how much of the 'great' coaches success is simply the players they had? You mentioned Luke Walton, who was 'great' with the stacked Ws and terrible with the terrible Kings. Would Phil Jackson be about the same?

You asked about switching coaches. Great question. Nobody knows because it's an impossible question to answer.

And while I respect Larry Brown, with only one NBA title I can't call him the GOAT. He's one of the greatest coaches of all time no doubt though. He had success at just about ever stop of his career.

You mentioned Brown won a ring without a HOF. I disagree. I think Billups will get in at some point. And with 10,000+ reb's & 2,000+ blks I can see Wallace getting in somewhere down the road as well. He had 4 seasons of 100+ blks & stls. And had 3 seasons of 200+ blks & 100 stls.

And your lesser talent comment about Brown. He had one of the greatest CBB players of all time, 1988 POY Danny Manning (2,900+ pts, 1,100+ rebs, 250 stls & 200 blks).

Take any HOF coach and give him a bad roster and that coach isn't having success.

 

[msgkings322]

You asked about switching coaches. Great question. Nobody knows because it's an impossible question to answer.

And while I respect Larry Brown, with only one NBA title I can't call him the GOAT. He's one of the greatest coaches of all time no doubt though. He had success at just about ever stop of his career.

You mentioned Brown won a ring without a HOF. I disagree. I think Billups will get in at some point. And with 10,000+ reb's & 2,000+ blks I can see Wallace getting in somewhere down the road as well. He had 4 seasons of 100+ blks & stls. And had 3 seasons of 200+ blks & 100 stls.

And your lesser talent comment about Brown. He had one of the greatest CBB players of all time, 1988 POY Danny Manning (2,900+ pts, 1,100+ rebs, 250 stls & 200 blks).

Take any HOF coach and give him a bad roster and that coach isn't having success.

But titles come from great players, right? So only one title and close to another with lesser players really adds to Brown's case, based on your own comments.

 

[Pastafazul]

The Knicks dumped Shump and JR to the Cavs VIA TRADE because the Knicks were desperate to dump salary. The Knicks were 5-32 at the time of the trade. The Knicks got Amundson, Kirk and a 2nd from the Cavs lol. Blame it on your own front office, not Lebron or the Cavs.

lol, Knicks have dumped every pick in last 15 years, for one foolish reason or another.

still does change the fact of what knick fans witnessed, and where these particular Players ended up.

And to my point, Lebron has/had say to every player joining roster , and y’all continue to ignore this!

 

[trojanfan12]

I really don’t think Doc underachieved with the Celtics.

They spilt 1-1 with an equally good Laker team, then they ran into the LeBron Heat as their core was starting to age out of contention anyway.

The only real blemish was 2009

So he still underachieved a little (should have had at least 1 more finals appearance), but not nearly as badly as with the Clips.

 

[Pastafazul]

Let me get this straight...

Blake Griffin intentionally tanks , sits, gets picked up by #1 contender in the East.

and one wonders why ratings are Down?

 

[dtgold88]

You're misunderstanding me. Obviously the players play, the coaches don't win without players. But does it matter who the coach is, if those great players are out there? Switch Daly with Jackson, or Spo with Pop, does it change the outcomes?

And that's my point about Larry Brown, Billups etc were the only team to win a ring without a HOFer. Brown took lesser talent and won titles (in both the NCAA and NBA) and got Iverson and a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.

Brown is GOAT because I don't know that Jackson or Riley or the rest would have his success with the players he had.

So I guess I'm asking you, how much of the 'great' coaches success is simply the players they had? You mentioned Luke Walton, who was 'great' with the stacked Ws and terrible with the terrible Kings. Would Phil Jackson be about the same?

IMO, absolutely. I'm confident in saying if he added a couple stars in the FO of the Knicks he'd have come down to coach them (like Riles did in Miami...though to his credit he didn't exactly have a loaded NY team). No way was Phillip gonna accept a challenge, though.

 

[dtgold88]

It doesn’t matter.

Because he was great so many times the hypothetical is irrelevant.

Not sure I'd call it irrelevant when talking overall coaching ability. Can he coach arguably the GOAT to a title with another top 50 player then arguably the 2 best players in the league to a title? Then arguably the best player and maybe another top 10-20 player? Yep. Any less than that? Nope.

I do agree a real nice job getting the Bulls as far as they went when MJ was out. But no MJ (or Kobe and Shaq/Pau) and a bunch of seasons like that and we'd forget who he was.

 

[trojanfan12]

The difference between a good coach and a bad coach in the NBA is all about they players.

Yes and no.

Give a good to great coach a roster of bad players and it's still going to be a bad team. He'll just win enough to hurt their lottery position (we're seeing that in NY with Thibs).

But, if you give a below average coach, a contending roster, he'll get them to the playoffs, but that's about it.

Obviously, there's an outlier or 2 and maybe a guy or 2 that we're not sure about yet (like Ty Lue), but for the most part, it's true.

 

[Hambombs]

Yes and no.

Give a good to great coach a roster of bad players and it's still going to be a bad team. He'll just win enough to hurt their lottery position (we're seeing that in NY with Thibs).

But, if you give a below average coach, a contending roster, he'll get them to the playoffs, but that's about it.

Obviously, there's an outlier or 2 and maybe a guy or 2 that we're not sure about yet (like Ty Lue), but for the most part, it's true.

Thibs got that team playing defense, outside of yesterday anyway

 

[bksballer89]

So he still underachieved a little (should have had at least 1 more finals appearance), but not nearly as badly as with the Clips.

Kg injury ruined everything imo

 

[bksballer89]

 

[tlance]

Not sure I'd call it irrelevant when talking overall coaching ability. Can he coach arguably the GOAT to a title with another top 50 player then arguably the 2 best players in the league to a title? Then arguably the best player and maybe another top 10-20 player? Yep. Any less than that? Nope.

I do agree a real nice job getting the Bulls as far as they went when MJ was out. But no MJ (or Kobe and Shaq/Pau) and a bunch of seasons like that and we'd forget who he was.

You do realize though, it is very difficult to do that, right?

Especially with the egos Phil had. MJ and Kobe were not easy to play with.

It is quite possible that if saddled with a mediocre coach, maybe Jordan only wins 1/2 titles and he isn’t even in the GOAT convo.

And since coaches with good records don’t typically get fired, it is also quite possible that a mediocre coach would still win enough to keep his job in Chicago. Much like say, Scott Brooks in OKC.

Jordan and Kobe had zero rings without Phil.

Of course I think the player side is more important, but it isn’t fair to diminish what Phil accomplished with those teams, because I don’t think the average coach gets anywhere near 11 titles out of the rosters Phil had.

They had the perfect storm in Chicago. Great roster, great coaching, and also lack of another true peer contender.

 

[trojanfan12]

Of course I think the player side is more important, but it isn’t fair to diminish what Phil accomplished with those teams, because I don’t think the average coach gets anywhere near 11 titles out of the rosters Phil had.

Del Harris, who is a very good coach imo, couldn't get the Shaq/Kobe Lakers out of the West. Phil won a title with them year 1.

 

[CitySushi]

The thing that bothers me the most with what Kerr is doing is that he seemingly has no plan for the season.

The Warriors weren't going to be a championship contender, but they could potentially play for a decent seed in the playoffs and at least make some noise. But Kerr indicated earlier in the season that he wasn't chasing wins and many times he reduces Steph's minutes in crucial parts of the game which cause the Warriors to lose a big lead or have a close game get out of hand. There have been at least 7-8 winnable games the Warriors have lost just because of his refusal to entertain possibly changing Steph's minute. And I'm not talking about playing him an extra 5 minutes a game, I'm talking about maybe a minute, two tops, but just to stop the bleeding in certain situations.

Then since the Warriors are not "chasing wins" maybe, just maybe, you should try to develop the young guys. Wiseman started off the season strong and then replaced him for Looney in the starting lineup. Then he reduced his minutes further with the 2nd unit. You have Brad Wanamaker who has struggled all season and yet you don't even try to play Jordan Poole, your 1st round draft pick last year who has shown promise, in that role. You ship him off to Orlando, where he balled out and promptly comes back and scores 26 off the bench. On top of that it's clear that Poole's best role is on ball, yet for some reason Kerr continually plays his as a SG off ball like Klay. And last game for some odd reason he decides to bench Damion Lee for Nico Mannion. Probably because he wanted to play Poole and as above, doesn't think he can play with the ball in his hands as a PG. Weird.

Lastly there has been no changes into the system to maximize ability of others. Kerr is STILL trying to force this system upon players who are not ideal fits for it. He was a genius in 2015 because the system he developed maximized THOSE players abilities. You had Iguodala, Livingston, Bogut who were all very high basketball IQ guys and incredible passers. So his read and react offense worked. But now you don't have any of that. But that doesn't mean you don't have quality basketball players who can do other things.

Right now Kerr being unwilling to adapt is what leads me down the path to he has to go. The old Warriors are gone. There's no replicating that. You either grow or die in this league.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Wiseman got punished by the team for missing two covid tests during the All-Star break. That's why he only played the 2nd half and only limited minutes:

Kerr benches Wiseman: Missing tests 'hurt us'

Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr said benching rookie James Wiseman for the first half of Thursday night's game was "all part of development as a young player."

www.espn.com

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I dont know what Kerr is doing there.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The thing that bothers me the most with what Kerr is doing is that he seemingly has no plan for the season.

The Warriors weren't going to be a championship contender, but they could potentially play for a decent seed in the playoffs and at least make some noise. But Kerr indicated earlier in the season that he wasn't chasing wins and many times he reduces Steph's minutes in crucial parts of the game which cause the Warriors to lose a big lead or have a close game get out of hand. There have been at least 7-8 winnable games the Warriors have lost just because of his refusal to entertain possibly changing Steph's minute. And I'm not talking about playing him an extra 5 minutes a game, I'm talking about maybe a minute, two tops, but just to stop the bleeding in certain situations.

Then since the Warriors are not "chasing wins" maybe, just maybe, you should try to develop the young guys. Wiseman started off the season strong and then replaced him for Looney in the starting lineup. Then he reduced his minutes further with the 2nd unit. You have Brad Wanamaker who has struggled all season and yet you don't even try to play Jordan Poole, your 1st round draft pick last year who has shown promise, in that role. You ship him off to Orlando, where he balled out and promptly comes back and scores 26 off the bench. On top of that it's clear that Poole's best role is on ball, yet for some reason Kerr continually plays his as a SG off ball like Klay. And last game for some odd reason he decides to bench Damion Lee for Nico Mannion. Probably because he wanted to play Poole and as above, doesn't think he can play with the ball in his hands as a PG. Weird.

Lastly there has been no changes into the system to maximize ability of others. Kerr is STILL trying to force this system upon players who are not ideal fits for it. He was a genius in 2015 because the system he developed maximized THOSE players abilities. You had Iguodala, Livingston, Bogut who were all very high basketball IQ guys and incredible passers. So his read and react offense worked. But now you don't have any of that. But that doesn't mean you don't have quality basketball players who can do other things.

Right now Kerr being unwilling to adapt is what leads me down the path to he has to go. The old Warriors are gone. There's no replicating that. You either grow or die in this league.

100 percent

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Del Harris, who is a very good coach imo, couldn't get the Shaq/Kobe Lakers out of the West. Phil won a title with them year 1.

Phil was the best melder of talent in league history.