2021 NBA regular season thread

[msgkings322]

agree. as to your ? before you saw my edited answer I'm really not sure about Doc. Cs didn't do much before adding Garnett and Allen. Then added them and he won a title. Underachieved with Clips last year, but could say overachieving with 76ers and doing a great job so far. He's hard to figure.

Pop, Jackson, Riley any good?

Doc overachieved with Clippers the year before last...

 

[Pastafazul]

So they needed Moz and Shump to beat GS, had Moz and Shump, but beat them without using them?

Can ya really not see where your "logic" might be a tad off base (though comical)?

When the rings were handed out, did they not get theirs?

 

[dtgold88]

Pop, Jackson, Riley any good?

Doc overachieved with Clippers the year before last...

IMO Pop and Riley for sure are top of profession. Jackson might be but he wouldn't let us find out as he would not take a job that might be a challenge....we know he is not so good as a GM, though.

 

[dtgold88]

When the rings were handed out, did they not get theirs?

sure they did. so did lower level support staff. Did Lebron lure them over, too?

 

[Wamu]

I mean, how do we really judge a great coach from a good one, luck is a huge factor in sports, but he's gotta be one of the best in the game today.

The difference between a good coach and a bad coach in the NBA is all about they players. The better the players, the more success a coach has.

Steve Kerr's a perfect example. During GS's dynasty run, when the Warriors were loaded, he looked like one of the best coaches in league history. Take away the majority of the talent and now he doesn't look like an all time great.

When Luke Walton was filling in for Kerr he went 39-4. He's done pretty much nothing as a HC since leaving GS. His coaching record is 144-211 (.406) and no winning seasons.

 

[dtgold88]

The difference between a good coach and a bad coach in the NBA is all about they players. The better the players, the more success a coach has.

Steve Kerr's a perfect example. During GS's dynasty run, when the Warriors were loaded, he looked like one of the best coaches in league history. Take away the majority of the talent and now he doesn't look like an all time great.

When Luke Walton was filling in for Kerr he went 39-4. He's done pretty much nothing as a HC since leaving GS. His coaching record is 144-211 (.406) and no winning seasons.

Pretty sure msg is saying this.....his Q was other than how great or bad the player is how do we judge a good coach from the rest.

Not perfect, but I like the coaches who seem to do more with less. But even that has some subjectivity to it.

 

[Pastafazul]

sure they did. so did lower level support staff. Did Lebron lure them over, too?

Why don’t you ask these guys to give back the ring! In your eyes they don’t deserve them.

you have no clue on what impact these players may have had on a roster , they , may never see a minute of game play, but what they did for the team in practice was invaluable to them. Every one plays the part. You are clueless. Stick to what you think you know. You got plenty of support here.

If you never had a taste, you can’t possibly know what it’s like !

 

[dtgold88]

Why don’t you ask these guys to give back the ring! In your eyes they don’t deserve them.

you have no clue on what impact these players may have had on a roster , they , may never see a minute of game play, but what they did for the team in practice was invaluable to them. Every one plays the part. You are clueless. Stick to what you think you know. You got plenty of support here.

If you never had a taste, you can’t possibly know what it’s like !

just wow.

 

[msgkings322]

The difference between a good coach and a bad coach in the NBA is all about they players. The better the players, the more success a coach has.

Steve Kerr's a perfect example. During GS's dynasty run, when the Warriors were loaded, he looked like one of the best coaches in league history. Take away the majority of the talent and now he doesn't look like an all time great.

When Luke Walton was filling in for Kerr he went 39-4. He's done pretty much nothing as a HC since leaving GS. His coaching record is 144-211 (.406) and no winning seasons.

So basically coaching doesn't matter? I'm not really disagreeing with you but is there any more to it than being a placeholder basically? Someone's gotta hold the clipboard but it doesn't matter who?

That makes Larry Brown even more GOAT then...

 

[Wamu]

So basically coaching doesn't matter? I'm not really disagreeing with you but is there any more to it than being a placeholder basically? Someone's gotta hold the clipboard but it doesn't matter who?

That makes Larry Brown even more GOAT then...

Of course coaching matters. But it also matters what players a coach has. I'll go back to the beginning of the league to give you examples.

John Kundla. How many titles does he win without the leagues first superstar George Mikan?

Red Auerbach. How many titles does he win without all those HOFers he drafted?

Pat Riley. How many titles doe he win without KAJ, Magic, Worthy, D. Wade, Shaq, LeBron, Bosh?

Chuck Daly. What does he win without Isiah & Dumars?

Phil Jackson. You think he has all those rings without MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq?

Pop. Does he have 5 rings without Robinson, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi?

Spo. Does he get back to back titles without D. Wade, LeBron, Bosh?


Never suggested coaching doesn't matter. But I stand by what I said that players make a coach in the NBA. Not the other way around.

You think Larry Brown wins that ring without Billups, Rip, B. Wallace?

 

[Wamu]

Pretty sure msg is saying this.....his Q was other than how great or bad the player is how do we judge a good coach from the rest.

Not perfect, but I like the coaches who seem to do more with less. But even that has some subjectivity to it.

Read comment # 9,150.

 

[dtgold88]

Read comment # 9,150.

Pretty sure we al agree on this. question is what coaches do you think are better...like maybe who can do more with less?

 

[Pastafazul]

Wamu, did you just accuse another poster of taking something out of context? Lol

man, if there were a draft for posters, they be lots of 1st rounders all up in this shit

 

[shopson67]

That's exactly what I mean, the way he plays.

Well, that and his ignoring covid protocols, quitting on his team, etc.

 

[shopson67]

It still baffles me that people don't realize how good Butler is. He's been a baller since Chicago. And he's only got a rep of being "difficult" if you've got guys on your team that don't want to work, which is how it should be

He's your ideal glue player. He fills in what's needed on a nightly basis, doesn't force anything unless necessary.

 

[tlance]

So basically coaching doesn't matter? I'm not really disagreeing with you but is there any more to it than being a placeholder basically? Someone's gotta hold the clipboard but it doesn't matter who?

That makes Larry Brown even more GOAT then...

No.

Every roster has its ceiling.

An average coach can win with a loaded roster and lose with a bad 1.

A bad coach can underachieve with a good roster.

A top tier coach can overachieve somewhat with a weak roster, but more importantly, IMO is consistently getting good teams to the finish line at or near their ceiling.

Nobody did that better than Phil Jackson. Nobody.

Knocking him for never taking coaching jobs with challenged rosters is silly. He absolutely got the most out of the teams he coached. And he did it with multiple core groups of players. That is what great coaches do.

Oh, and by the way, ‘94 without MJ was not exactly a loaded roster. And they nearly went to the ECF.

Any GOAT convo without Phil is just wrong.

 

[msgkings322]

Of course coaching matters. But it also matters what players a coach has. I'll go back to the beginning of the league to give you examples.

John Kundla. How many titles does he win without the leagues first superstar George Mikan?

Red Auerbach. How many titles does he win without all those HOFers he drafted?

Pat Riley. How many titles doe he win without KAJ, Magic, Worthy, D. Wade, Shaq, LeBron, Bosh?

Chuck Daly. What does he win without Isiah & Dumars?

Phil Jackson. You think he has all those rings without MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq?

Pop. Does he have 5 rings without Robinson, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi?

Spo. Does he get back to back titles without D. Wade, LeBron, Bosh?


Never suggested coaching doesn't matter. But I stand by what I said that players make a coach in the NBA. Not the other way around.

You think Larry Brown wins that ring without Billups, Rip, B. Wallace?

You're misunderstanding me. Obviously the players play, the coaches don't win without players. But does it matter who the coach is, if those great players are out there? Switch Daly with Jackson, or Spo with Pop, does it change the outcomes?

And that's my point about Larry Brown, Billups etc were the only team to win a ring without a HOFer. Brown took lesser talent and won titles (in both the NCAA and NBA) and got Iverson and a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.

Brown is GOAT because I don't know that Jackson or Riley or the rest would have his success with the players he had.

So I guess I'm asking you, how much of the 'great' coaches success is simply the players they had? You mentioned Luke Walton, who was 'great' with the stacked Ws and terrible with the terrible Kings. Would Phil Jackson be about the same?

 

[shopson67]

Cmon bro, why? It’s not you! Or is it?

let’s start from beginning, Knicks vs Cavs, prior to ‘15-16 season. Lebron was scouting out for what he needed to beat GS. Dude was , no pun intended, courtin, certain knick players during game. It was no coincidence that certain players ended up on Cavs roster. Cavs win championship.

and what you said is beyond lack of experience bro!!! A player can have such an impact on a season, players future , coach future at that level , in one instance/play that can turn a series around!

The Knicks dumped Shump and JR to the Cavs VIA TRADE because the Knicks were desperate to dump salary. The Knicks were 5-32 at the time of the trade. The Knicks got Amundson, Kirk and a 2nd from the Cavs lol. Blame it on your own front office, not Lebron or the Cavs.

 

[tlance]

You're misunderstanding me. Obviously the players play, the coaches don't win without players. But does it matter who the coach is, if those great players are out there? Switch Daly with Jackson, or Spo with Pop, does it change the outcomes?

And that's my point about Larry Brown, Billups etc were the only team to win a ring without a HOFer. Brown took lesser talent and won titles (in both the NCAA and NBA) and got Iverson and a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.

Brown is GOAT because I don't know that Jackson or Riley or the rest would have his success with the players he had.

So I guess I'm asking you, how much of the 'great' coaches success is simply the players they had? You mentioned Nate Walton, who was 'great' with the stacked Ws and terrible with the terrible Kings. Would Phil Jackson be about the same?

It doesn’t matter.

Because he was great so many times the hypothetical is irrelevant.

 

[trojanfan12]

agree. as to your ? before you saw my edited answer I'm really not sure about Doc. Cs didn't do much before adding Garnett and Allen. Then added them and he won a title. Underachieved with Clips last year, but could say overachieving with 76ers and doing a great job so far. He's hard to figure.

Maybe he struggles with stars egos? When he has average-below average talent, like the Clippers before Kawhi and PG, he seems to do a good job. But when he's had actual stars that you could win a title with (Celtics, Clippers with CP3 and Blake, Clippers with Kawi and PG) he has underachieved (1 title).

But, he has the Sixers, who have contending talent, playing like they could win the title.