2016 NBA Off-Season Thread part 2

[Heatles84]

Seems like only you and Bosh dont see what is going on.
He FAILED his physical and NBA doctor(s) agreed.
Hes had 3 seperate incidents with blood clots.

Ill continue to wait for his propeganda to end via videos of him
shooting foul shots vs videos of him playing full contact basketball.

My guess is that he doesnt even wrestle around on the floor with his kids anymore.

The days of his wife riding him from the top are also probably over.

With how big his wife's ass is, you're probably right.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Seems like only you and Bosh dont see what is going on.
He FAILED his physical and NBA doctor(s) agreed.
Hes had 3 seperate incidents with blood clots.

Ill continue to wait for his propeganda to end via videos of him
shooting foul shots vs videos of him playing full contact basketball.

My guess is that he doesnt even wrestle around on the floor with his kids anymore.

The days of his wife riding him from the top are also probably over.

I was under the impression that it was the Heat's doctors that did not clear him. So what you are saying is an independent doctor that the players union and league consented to made this decision?

 

[WiggyRuss]

Look how excited I am

why couldnt those thieves at least have pistol whipped KK? just once!

 

[Heatles84]

I was under the impression that it was the Heat's doctors that did not clear him. So what you are saying is an independent doctor that the players union and league consented to made this decision?

The Heat's doctors didn't clear him and apparently the NBA doctors reviewed the case and agreed. The part you're mentioning will eventually occur as they'll likely assign an independent doctor as well. Having said that, Turnup laid it all out. If he's so ready to play, why haven't we seen videos of him playing full contact basketball? Shooting jump shots in an empty gym doesn't count.

 

[Heatles84]

why couldnt those thieves at least have pistol whipped KK? just once!

Ok, how in the hell did Wiggy just become my favorite poster in a matter of seconds?

 

[WiggyRuss]

very interesting article from the NYT who does not have a dog in the right;

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/sports/basketball/chris-bosh-miami-heat-blood-clots.html?_r=0

Chris Bosh, one of the top players in the N.B.A., has never caused trouble for his team, on or off the court. He has won two N.B.A. titles and been selected for the All-Star Game 11 times. The Miami Heat, however, do not want him to step on the court for them this season, or perhaps ever again.

In one of the strangest and most ethically challenging standoffs in sports history, Bosh and the Heat are locked in a dispute over whether he should be deemed medically fit to play after dealing with serious health problems. With training camp scheduled to start this week, Bosh says he is ready to go. The Heat say he is not.

.....
Bosh also alluded to the tension between himself and the Heat’s medical staff.

“If you’re an athlete in this game, you have to protect your own interests, and you have to protect your body and your family,” Bosh said. “If one doctor is a doctor for 15 guys, who’s paying this guy?”

He added, “If you’re paying a doctor through your pocket, your insurance — whatever that case may be — that changes their interest.”

Samantha Brennan, a philosophy professor at Western University in London, Ontario, teaches a class on sports ethics that touches on the role of team doctors and the conflicts of interest that can arise — namely, clearing athletes to return to competition before they are ready.

“That’s what makes the case involving Chris Bosh so unusual,” Brennan said, referring to the urge among teams to send players back onto the field.

So what happens if an athlete, fully aware of the medical risks, insists on continuing to play? Does the team have a moral responsibility to look out for the athlete’s well-being? In most cases, Brennan said, risk taking is left to the discretion of adults. The challenge with many athletes, she said, is that they have invested so much of themselves in their careers from an early age that it can cloud their judgment.

“When they need to make a difficult decision, it puts them in a bind,” Brennan said. “It makes it very hard for them to say, ‘I’m ready to stop playing.’”

Ultimately, Brennan said, an athlete is an employee, and team officials have the power to do what they want.

“So they’re making two kinds of decisions,” Brennan said, referring to the Heat. “One is an ethical decision about not wanting someone they know and care about — imagine if he died playing. They’re also making a self-interested decision because they’re worried about injuries and liability.”

 

[Heatles84]

why couldnt those thieves at least have pistol whipped KK? just once!

Also, I doubt that shit happened.

 

[WiggyRuss]

The Heat's doctors didn't clear him and apparently the NBA doctors reviewed the case and agreed. The part you're mentioning will eventually occur as they'll likely assign an independent doctor as well. Having said that, Turnup laid it all out. If he's so ready to play, why haven't we seen videos of him playing full contact basketball? Shooting jump shots in an empty gym doesn't count.

i havent seen that reported anywhere and i have definitely looked. AS far as i have seen the only dr's that have examined Bosh are the one's on the Heat's payroll.

 

[WiggyRuss]

"It's just a matter of time," Bosh said in the podcast. "I'm not the first -- and that's the best part about this -- I'm not the first athlete to do this regimen. My wife and I went out and we found doctors ourselves. We worked with guys. We end up finding a guy by the name of Tomas Fleischmann. He used to play with the (NHL's) Florida Panthers. Same problem I had, actually the second time. And this was five years before, six years before. And he's been playing for four or five years now...this is nothing that's new. It's not groundbreaking. We're not re-inventing the wheel here...for anybody to have worries, there is a guy -- guys -- playing basketball and hockey and football."

it actually cites Andy Varejao, another hockey player, Serena Williams, as other athletes thta had blood clots that have come back from it.

I hadnt seen that reported anywhere before--- interesting. So there is a precedent.

 

[Heatles84]

i havent seen that reported anywhere and i have definitely looked. AS far as i have seen the only dr's that have examined Bosh are the one's on the Heat's payroll.

I've been having issues finding it as well. I think it may be from one of the Ira Winderman interviews on WQAM (South Florida radio station). Regardless, the article you just pointed out paints it out perfectly. There's a reason a majority of doctors won't clear Bosh. The Heat don't want him dying on the court on their conscience - and I don't blame them. This is always going to be an issue from here on out with Bosh. Yes, having just the team doctor's point of views can be somewhat one-sided (the movie Any Given Sunday paints a vivid picture of how some team doctors operates, at least with football anyway). But Bosh couldn't even pass his physical as his blood test came back positive for blood clotting - his third occurrence in 2 1/2 years.

From a cap perspective, if and when the $40+ million comes on the books, I'm curious as to how this is going to work out. Westbrook and Blake were the two free agents that I'm sure the Heat were going to go after. Westbrook already signed his extension so that leaves Blake Griffin. I'm really hoping that he doesn't re-sign with the Clips (sorry, Mecca).

tldr - Bosh needs to retire and enjoy the $76 mil coming his way.

 

[Black Adam]

With how big his wife's ass is, you're probably right.

err, must be one Helluva ass...

 

[Heatles84]

"It's just a matter of time," Bosh said in the podcast. "I'm not the first -- and that's the best part about this -- I'm not the first athlete to do this regimen. My wife and I went out and we found doctors ourselves. We worked with guys. We end up finding a guy by the name of Tomas Fleischmann. He used to play with the (NHL's) Florida Panthers. Same problem I had, actually the second time. And this was five years before, six years before. And he's been playing for four or five years now...this is nothing that's new. It's not groundbreaking. We're not re-inventing the wheel here...for anybody to have worries, there is a guy -- guys -- playing basketball and hockey and football."

it actually cites Andy Varejao, another hockey player, Serena Williams, as other athletes thta had blood clots that have come back from it.

I hadnt seen that reported anywhere before--- interesting. So there is a precedent.

And not every situation is the same. For the one guy he found which is a rare condition, there's others who have issues like Bosh's and can't play. As has already been said, Bosh is holding onto a perceived glimmer of hope that just doesn't exist.

 

[Black Adam]

Ok, how in the hell did Wiggy just become my favorite poster in a matter of seconds?

wouldn't count on that CONTINUING to happen...

 

[Heatles84]

wouldn't count on that CONTINUING to happen...

Yeah....me and Wiggy just clash when it comes to the NBA, particularly anything to do with the Cavs and Heat. Outside of that, the very little interaction we have, we seem to agree - then again, who doesn't hate Kim Kardashian?

 

[WiggyRuss]

And not every situation is the same. For the one guy he found which is a rare condition, there's others who have issues like Bosh's and can't play. As has already been said, Bosh is holding onto a perceived glimmer of hope that just doesn't exist.

I didn't realize there had been a precedent set though. I think that will be significant if it ever gets in front of an impartial 3rd party from the league- where i imagine where this is heading at some point.....

I just think that this is totally uncharted territory in so many ways- it will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

 

[Heatles84]

I didn't realize there had been a precedent set though. I think that will be significant if it ever gets in front of an impartial 3rd party from the league- where i imagine where this is heading at some point.....

I just think that this is totally uncharted territory in so many ways- it will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

We're in agreement here. I know that's where this is headed. I said it last week - this thing is far from over in terms of the overall process. There are some hurdles still left here.

But I continue to stand by with the notion that Bosh's career is done. At some point, all parties will be in agreement that the risk is just too great. Besides, it's not like he's not going to get another dime, he'll leave with $76 million. If he's responsible with the money, the next few generations of his family are taken care for - shouldn't that be the big picture?

 

[WiggyRuss]

We're in agreement here. I know that's where this is headed. I said it last week - this thing is far from over in terms of the overall process. There are some hurdles still left here.

But I continue to stand by with the notion that Bosh's career is done. At some point, all parties will be in agreement that the risk is just too great. Besides, it's not like he's not going to get another dime, he'll leave with $76 million. If he's responsible with the money, the next few generations of his family are taken care for - shouldn't that be the big picture?

I cant blame the Heat for the position they are taking----- Bosh is a liability, you cant plan, and you have a ton of cap space clogged up.

I cant help but think this might play out different if Bosh was on a 2 year 10M dollar contract instead of 3 years 76M though.

As I have said from the beginning- both the Heat and Bosh have conflicting interests and doctors that will support eachother- both can point to examples of players having their careers end because of blood clot issues- and players that have continued on with blood clot issues. Of course- all circumstances are different.

The risk for the Heat as we have said from the beginning is if they overplay their hand and their is some doubt as to if he can play- and he ends up coming back, playing 25 games and going back on the Heat's payroll.

From the beginning I have said i think its so weird that Bosh would continue to maintain he can play if he thought his life was at risk. He has millions, an accomplished career, wife and kids etc.....he has nothing left to prove, yet he continues to insist on wanting to play.

that brings up the ethical issue- is it the Heat's duty to protect him from himself if he is truly at risk?
I would think that would be the duty of the league because of the obvious conflicts of interest.

Even if there is the APPEARANCE or even a scant possiblity of a conflict of interest- judges, attorneys etc. have to recuse themselves from certain proceedings.

Putting on my not-yet-a-lawyer hat- if i got this project- the first thing I would do is look at the CBA and see what it says- go directly to the governing document. If- like Mecca reported from Windhorst- that a doctor who is dually approved as independent from the players union and the league rules for or against Bosh- i think that should be it.

That is the most important thing to me--- you find a dr. or a panel of doctors that the players association and the league can agree on as legitimate and independent, give them all the info- and then let them make a decision and totally take it out of the hands of the HEat and Bosh's hands. If at that point dr's that are approved by the league and the players union say Bosh shouldnt play- then he shouldnt and he should be forced to retire.

 

[Heatles84]

I cant blame the Heat for the position they are taking----- Bosh is a liability, you cant plan, and you have a ton of cap space clogged up.

I cant help but think this might play out different if Bosh was on a 2 year 10M dollar contract instead of 3 years 76M though.

As I have said from the beginning- both the Heat and Bosh have conflicting interests and doctors that will support eachother- both can point to examples of players having their careers end because of blood clot issues- and players that have continued on with blood clot issues. Of course- all circumstances are different.

The risk for the Heat as we have said from the beginning is if they overplay their hand and their is some doubt as to if he can play- and he ends up coming back, playing 25 games and going back on the Heat's payroll.

From the beginning I have said i think its so weird that Bosh would continue to maintain he can play if he thought his life was at risk. He has millions, an accomplished career, wife and kids etc.....he has nothing left to prove, yet he continues to insist on wanting to play.

that brings up the ethical issue- is it the Heat's duty to protect him from himself if he is truly at risk?
I would think that would be the duty of the league because of the obvious conflicts of interest.

Even if there is the APPEARANCE or even a scant possiblity of a conflict of interest- judges, attorneys etc. have to recuse themselves from certain proceedings.

Putting on my not-yet-a-lawyer hat- if i got this project- the first thing I would do is look at the CBA and see what it says- go directly to the governing document. If- like Mecca reported from Windhorst- that a doctor who is dually approved as independent from the players union and the league rules for or against Bosh- i think that should be it.

That is the most important thing to me--- you find a dr. or a panel of doctors that the players association and the league can agree on as legitimate and independent, give them all the info- and then let them make a decision and totally take it out of the hands of the HEat and Bosh's hands. If at that point dr's that are approved by the league and the players union say Bosh shouldnt play- then he shouldnt and he should be forced to retire.

I think regardless of Bosh's salary, the Heat would still take the same approach. It's getting so much attention because Bosh is an all-star player. If this were a journeyman player, there wouldn't be much attention on it.

And yes, as you've mentioned, we can't plan anything for the long term because of Bosh. His salary takes up over a quarter of the cap space right now. At the moment, the Heat have a quarter handicap compared to the rest of the league - which is why I predict the 28-32 wins for this upcoming season.

Bosh is fighting an uphill battle as the Heat and the NBA don't want to see him back in the league for a variety of reasons. It falls on the players union as they're approaching this probably with the most impartial mindset of the 3 parties. But, given that this is a life-threatening issue, I don't see many doctors putting there name on the line in siding with Bosh on this one. Bosh can mention the ONE NHL player all he wants and not reinventing the wheel, but there's a reason he has to do so much research in finding a doctor that will approve of him playing with blood thinners

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I cant blame the Heat for the position they are taking----- Bosh is a liability, you cant plan, and you have a ton of cap space clogged up.

I cant help but think this might play out different if Bosh was on a 2 year 10M dollar contract instead of 3 years 76M though.

As I have said from the beginning- both the Heat and Bosh have conflicting interests and doctors that will support eachother- both can point to examples of players having their careers end because of blood clot issues- and players that have continued on with blood clot issues. Of course- all circumstances are different.

The risk for the Heat as we have said from the beginning is if they overplay their hand and their is some doubt as to if he can play- and he ends up coming back, playing 25 games and going back on the Heat's payroll.

From the beginning I have said i think its so weird that Bosh would continue to maintain he can play if he thought his life was at risk. He has millions, an accomplished career, wife and kids etc.....he has nothing left to prove, yet he continues to insist on wanting to play.

that brings up the ethical issue- is it the Heat's duty to protect him from himself if he is truly at risk?
I would think that would be the duty of the league because of the obvious conflicts of interest.

Even if there is the APPEARANCE or even a scant possiblity of a conflict of interest- judges, attorneys etc. have to recuse themselves from certain proceedings.

Putting on my not-yet-a-lawyer hat- if i got this project- the first thing I would do is look at the CBA and see what it says- go directly to the governing document. If- like Mecca reported from Windhorst- that a doctor who is dually approved as independent from the players union and the league rules for or against Bosh- i think that should be it.

That is the most important thing to me--- you find a dr. or a panel of doctors that the players association and the league can agree on as legitimate and independent, give them all the info- and then let them make a decision and totally take it out of the hands of the HEat and Bosh's hands. If at that point dr's that are approved by the league and the players union say Bosh shouldnt play- then he shouldnt and he should be forced to retire.

If it were 2 year 10M it might be handled different because the contract would end in
June vs being on the books for 2 more seasons.

Heat still wouldnt let him on the court.

As far as doctors outside of the Heats, I read that was the case.
Not sure which article.

"Bosh thinks he’s ready to return, and has gotten the union involved. It was previously reported, however, that no matter how good he feels, the team doctors won’t clear him and they believe no other team would, either."


If hes ready to return, lets see him take a few body slams from 7 footers crashing the boards with him.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Look how excited I am

This is probably the best Team the Clippers have ever had, top to bottom.

But, They could still tap out in the 1st round.