2014 Pirates

[element1286]

Zobrist is kind of square peg, round hole on the Pirates, IMO. He's actually the exact guy the A's should have been targeting since they have a black hole at 2nd.

 

[thecrow124]

The way I see it, no team in the NL Central got substantially better, St. Louis possibly got a little better. Milwaukee probably upgraded their bench. Cinch and pittsburgh did nothing. Pittsburgh was playing better than all three of the others, and none of the others improved enough to change that.

As far as the NL goes, Dodgers and Giants stood pat, Atlanta did nothing and Washington got a little better.

In all, I don't think any team did enough to make themselves that much better than the Pirates. I still forced us making the playoffs and possibly even winning the division. So all in all, nothing really changed.

 

[Darkstone42]

The way I see it, no team in the NL Central got substantially better, St. Louis possibly got a little better. Milwaukee probably upgraded their bench. Cinch and pittsburgh did nothing. Pittsburgh was playing better than all three of the others, and none of the others improved enough to change that.

As far as the NL goes, Dodgers and Giants stood pat, Atlanta did nothing and Washington got a little better.

In all, I don't think any team did enough to make themselves that much better than the Pirates. I still forced us making the playoffs and possibly even winning the division. So all in all, nothing really changed.

The Giants brought in Peavy and Atlanta upgraded their bench and bullpen, but otherwise I agree. I don't think the Cards or Brewers substantially improved, and right now I think we're still better than both.

Even so, I think we need to make a move on the waiver wire. The gap between us isn't very big, and our bullpen has looked shaky lately. Maybe Lambo can be the upgrade we need at first base, though, or maybe Kingham can turn around his recent shakiness and upgrade our rotation, allowing us to use Volquez out of the pen.

Oliver Perez, though, remains very interesting to me. He could be for us this year what Wilson was last year.

 

[Darkstone42]

And apparently Lee is hurt, so maybe we shouldn't ask about him...

 

[Darkstone42]

I'd still be interested in kicking the tires on Miley. He's having a "down year," but looking at his numbers, it kind of looks like he's been the victim of some bad luck. He could slot in for us at #3, I think, and he might not cost us much. Although, he is still very cheap, and I think he's going into arbitration next year for the first time, sot he control will drive up his price, but I think he's a worthwhile option, and the DBacks have not looked very smart in the trade market lately.

 

[element1286]

I'd like Miley too, not sure he would actually be available though. Definitely not now because he wouldn't clear waivers.

 

[Darkstone42]

I'd like Miley too, not sure he would actually be available though. Definitely not now because he wouldn't clear waivers.

True, probably not the sort of guy a rebuilding team would deal, but then again, you never know with the Diamondbacks. Might be worth a call in the winter meetings, though.

 

[Illinest]

This sucks. It really fucking sucks.
You can't improve a team by waiting on a trickle of prospects unless you're also doing what's necessary to keep the talent that you already have.
Next year maybe Taillon and Kingham arrive and contribute reasonably good seasons,, but with Liriano and Volquez's contracts up as well as Burnett's from the year before we're still going to end up worse in 2015 than we were in 2013.
Then what happens with Martin, Walker and Alvarez? The only way I can see us maintaining a decent level of production at those three positions is if we spend enough money (together with the legit starting pitcher we'll need to sign) that our payroll will most likely be in that 90 million range that Neal has already refused to go up to.

So we're looking at downgrading Martin with Tony Sanchez, possibly downgrading Walker with Hanson, and downgrading Liriano with God only knows who.

The problem now is the same as it ever was. It is not possible to field a good roster for 70 million dollars. We are still going to have the same problem, and the same arguments. 90 million isn't a target, it's a realistic floor on what you need to spend if you want to be competitive.

So it continues. Taillon, Kingham, Sanchez in - Liriano, Martin out. Next season Bell and Glasnow arrive as Pedro and Walker are leaving. Then Meadows arrives just as McCutchen is starting to get really expensive.
That's assuming that all of our prospects are legit (they're not), and no allowances made for injuries.

There isn't any point where the incoming talent will exceed the talent that we're losing, unless our budget changes dramatically.

 

[element1286]

I hear you Illinest, just seems like you are making a lot of assumptions that we can't even know at this point. Martin seems to be the only operative in that post that I think they need to resign. Walker yeah most likely want him for a few extra years, but how many, and at what cost? Is he actually a 135 wRC+ guy like he has shown this year, or a 115 wRC+ like he has averaged throughout his career? Seems important.

Does the team even want to extend Pedro? Or Liriano?

 

[thedddd]

Yeah what Dombrowski and Beane did were gamble on winning this year. I think Beane gambled even more but as many stated they don't look at their prospects from 1 through 20 and oh they need to keep #1 but would want to trade #20 etc.....And they don't worry about the roster 5 years from now since they have a good farm system and trust it. When you have a good system like the Pirates you need to gamble to make the major league roster better sometimes.

If Marlon Byrd/Justin Morneau is the best we are going to ever see as a gamble then we should continue expect more of the same each season.
Basically maybe the Pirates make the playoffs, maybe they don't or maybe they are over .500 or maybe they are under.

 

[Illinest]

Martin seems like the least likely to sign again. He refused an extra year already. He's not going to be doing any team-friendly deals with Pittsburgh.
Liriano is probably done here. All you have to do is look at Neal's history to know that he'd rather find the next Liriano than pay the one that he already "fixed".
Walker is consistently under-appreciated.
Alvarez is doing us a big favor by sucking this much. Maybe we'll get a discount because of it.

And what about the ganble that Neal is making? He's gambling that we'll have a healhty roster full of prospects that panned out, isn't he? Why gamble on that when you can take a better gamble on a 2014 squad that could've been a NL favorite with the addition of Lester or Price?

Actually I still think he wanted Cliff Lee all along. Neal wanted Lee in the Bay trade and I think Neal prefers the idea of an aging cost-controlled pitcher over a guy in his prime.

But that's just another gamble. Why is the cheapest gamble always the gamble that we end up making? I'd like to take a shot at the playoffs again.

 

[steelparrot]

Pedro is going to be nontendered imho, he just sucks.

 

[thecrow124]

Maybe Liriano re-signs, maybe he doesn't, does it really matter? He is a good pitcher, but I don't see him as the anchor of a staff, which is what we seem to be asking him to be.

Martin I do not believe will sign with us. Mainly because there is no reason to. He has had a rebirth to his career with us and will use that to get one more big payday.....as he should.

I don't think I need to comment on my feelings for Pedro.

Walker should be given a long term contract. He is a top 5 secondbaseman and even though he says he won't give a hometown discount, if he gets a fair offer, I don't see him turning it down to go somewhere else for a few more dollars.

Josh Harrison should be playing third base every day until we find someone better.

I think the Pirates should put in a waiver claim on Cole Hammels, the only team ahead of us that might do it is Miami, but I am not sure how much money they are bringing in. The Pirates have drawn well enough this year to be able to afford his entire contract at least through next season, then we have 2 years to trade him. Then again, working out a trade for him may be impossible with Amaro running that ship into the ground.

 

[thecrow124]

I am looking forward to when the Rays computers are hacked here soon just so we can find out who the Pirates offered for Price. The only thing we can be fairly certain about is that it did not include major league talent.

 

[sychmd]

why don't they just move pedro to 1B,
he only has one fielding error.
his errors are all on easy throws. the on-the-run and bare handed ones are great.
he scoops well and is somewhat athletic at 3B.

he would be an upgrade at 1B over ike.

then play harrison at 3B.
what about moving walker back to 3B (he was a catcher and 3B in minors). he must have a decent arm. he has minimal mobility at 2B, but should be Ok at third and then we put harrison at 2B, his natural position.
then we could be upgrading all 3 positions.
i am thinking the walker move for the winter to not mess with him this year. the cards seem to do these things with their IF and get away with it, why can't we.

 

[steelparrot]

I am looking forward to when the Rays computers are hacked here soon just so we can find out who the Pirates offered for Price. The only thing we can be fairly certain about is that it did not include major league talent.

Rays Turned Down A Better Offer For David Price Because They Didn?t Want Prospects | Rays Index


Apparently, we offered 4 prospects for Price.

 

[Illinest]

For F**$s sake...

Are we going to go through the same thing with Liriano that we just went through with Burnett? Our pitching staff - which seemed to be one of the best in the league in 2013 - is now performing like one of the worst in the league.
Why is this?
1. Replaced Burnett with Volquez. I'm not making any specific judgments about whether Burnett is an ace or worth the contract he received, and I'm not commenting on Volquez's contract either. Just making a bones to bones comparison. Burnett is better than Volquez. The end.
2. Liriano (predictably) regressed - but he regressed to a place that's not too far out of line with what we probably should've expected. He's still a decent starting pitcher.
3. Cole got injured.
4. Morton at least has managed to give us the best-case scenario for him. We got as much from Morton as we reasonably could've hoped to receive.
5. Wandy (predictably) retired.

And then there's Taillon's big injury.

I predicted most of this before the season started. I didn't even feel like I was going out on a limb in making these predictions. The only mistake I made was in failing to predict 2 major injuries. I only predicted 1.
Volquez's ERA is way better than he deserves. He's not good.
Morton has been slightly better than I had hoped. Still not ace-quality but I can't complain.
Wandy sucked. Nailed it.
Liriano is a career 3.60 FIP pitcher who had an ERA of about .060 points below his FIP in 2013 and an ERA of about .060 points above his FIP in 2014. He's not that hard to understand - he's just more prone to variation than the average pitcher. He's a 3.60 ERA pitcher. A #2 or #3 depending on the staff.
Cole hopefully doesn't have a screwed up shoulder.

But when we talk about the end of this season and the start of next we can't treat Liriano's impending departure as if it's some negligible event. It's not. We had a pitching staff that pitched a little over their heads in 2013 but they were collectively a decent group. Probably about league average if you judged them by talent alone. This year we're not pitching above our heads and we've got less talent to work with. And that's enough. We're a bottom third pitching staff again. Letting Liriano go is not going to help. If you want to get back to the middle of the pack then you need to keep the good pitchers and add more talent. You can't let Liriano go and say "well Taillon might be able to replace him" because then you're just continuing to suck.

We need to add talent. We can afford to lose Liriano if we add an equal or better talent to the roster to replace him. It would be better to add a guy like Hamels or Lee, but then also extend Liriano. Liriano as your 4th starter would be pretty nice. That's what a good team looks like.


I can't even get into the position players. The short version is - exact same story. If Walker or Alvarez walks and you don't have an equal player to replace him then the team is not going to be as good.
No you can't simply move Harrison to 3B, because if Morel is then replacing Harrison then our bench is a lot crappier all of a sudden.
Here's an idea: Rather than trying to replace Alvarez and Harrison with Morel and Harrison - why don't we replace Alvarez and Harrison with a legit free agent 3B and Alvarez? It's the difference between having Morel as your backup 3B, or Alvarez as your backup. Big difference. It's what happens when you actually work to improve the team rather than sitting on your ass and hoping that you can plug holes adequately.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Uh-oh! I'm afraid the Pirates playoff chances will join Clutch on the DL if he's put on it for any length of time (More than 7 days)?

 

[thecrow124]

Is anyone here besides me ok with the Pirates re-signing Edison Volquez? Probably not a huge deal, but something that mirrors Morton's deal I would be fine with.

 

[Darkstone42]

Is anyone here besides me ok with the Pirates re-signing Edison Volquez? Probably not a huge deal, but something that mirrors Morton's deal I would be fine with.

If nothing else, he's good depth, and his stuff would likely play well out of the bullpen. He's a little up and down, but as a fourth or fifth starter, we could do much worse.

I'd be in favor of a deal like Morton's for him.

I'd also talk to Liriano, since it seems like he's found his form again.