10,000 Posts for a Flyers Cup in 2019

[dspice07]

Interesting. Jake is called out, albeit in a hot mic situation and not overtly publicly, and he has one of his better games in recent memory. Oh the team still lost. The same mistakes were still made..."Let's be sure to leave someone in a high risk area all alone guys, its our team defense scheme!!"

It's just sad. This was one of the premier organizations in the NHL. Even if they didn't win the cup, they competed every year. Winning was important from the Owner to the ticket taker. The fans, insanely loyal.

Now, well, we are seeing it.

As to who is the Core? Look at who is consistently been "protected" by the organization since Laviolette. That would be Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds. While Raffl has also been here, his role in the team (mostly due to injury) was greatly reduced. For better or worse, this is the result of building around these players and allowing their voices and personalities to shape the team. It was said alot after last season that there were a lot of people in the organization not happy with Voracek. They questioned his attitude and work ethic. Simmonds has demonstrated over and over again a willingness to just quit on plays in his own zone that cost the team not just goals, but points in the standing. People say he is "great in the room" but if he was, why has this team been such a consistent slow starting team his entire time here?

Can you tell where I think the issues lie? I like Jake, but I think he is just unhappy here. Simmonds, I think can be an effective player in a role. Both should be shopped, as should Gudas, Weiss and JvR (who has no movement protection besides the length and Cap Hit).

I am not seeing any type of NMC with JVR, the contract will probably be sufficient for that.

Only 2 that have it are Giroux and Simmonds has a 12 team list M-NMC.

 

[awaz]

A couple things catching up..

1. I see every now and then people say 'we cant get any worse'. That's not true. Yes, 30th or 31st place which can't get worse, but there's a big difference between 69 point pace they're currently on and the 56 point season of 06-07. Or the abysmal 48 point season the Avs had a couple years ago (21 points behind 2nd to last and 46 points out of the playoffs!). So don't get too carried away with 'cant get any worse'. They absolutely can get worse.

2. I don't like when people go back to the beginning of Hextall's tenure and say the core hasn't fielded a competitive team. For 3 years Hextall did nothing to improve the on-ice product and was pretty honest about doing that. He filled roster holes with Michael Del Zotto, Jason Akeson, Mark Streit, Lecavalier's corpse. Blaming the core for the team not being competitive in those years is not fair. The Flyers, from the very top, Ed Snider included, agreed that they weren't trying to win cups in those years. How can you hold players responsible for not winning when the Owner and GM say they taking a step back and trying to position themselves to win in future seasons instead of the current one?

3. There's a big difference between turning over the bottom 6 and finding plugs on defense, to actually filling those holes with talent. Who was the last 3rd liner the Flyers had that was a legitimate offensive threat? If you want to compete in the NHL, you need 3 scoring lines. For the better part of the last 4 years, the Flyers have barely fielded 2. If there's not enough talent on the team, they're not going to be competitive. When you're trotting out Weise, Lehtera, Vandevelde, Bellemare, Varone, Akeson, Umberger, Gagner, White, even Raffl type players, en masse, on a regular basis, your team is not good enough to win playoff games. Period. It doesn't matter how good your other players are, or your core is, one line and one d-pair doesn't win hockey games. Every single hockey player in the history of the NHL is inconsistent from game to game. Teams get consistent by having enough talented players that while some guys are cold, other players are hot enough to carry them. If Simmonds, Voracek, Couturier, and Giroux weren't hot, who stepped up and carried the Flyers? Who were the Tyler Johnson, Ondej Palat, or Brayden Points to the Lightning's Stamkos and Kucherov? The fact is, they didn't (and don't) have them.

4. Enough was enough with Hextall. It was (and is), time to start filling those roster spots with good, talented players. Hextall wasn't ready to do that, so he got fired. We'll see what Fletcher does. He has the cap space, he has the prospect pipeline, to put together 3 good offensive lines (as we've looked at in other posts). The team talent level can be dramatically improved in the next 8 months.

5. We're going to see some roster shake up in the next few weeks. Everyone expects Simmonds to be moved, and he's a core player. He's worn the A, and he's going to be moved. I'm open to moving Voracek as well. That's 50% of what I would identify as the core if both of those guys get traded. It doesn't need to be blown up, even just trading Simmonds changes the dynamic of the team.

6. Trading Ghost and/or Provorov is ludicrous. 4 months of mediocre/poor play doesn't, and shouldn't, outshine 2+ years of extremely high level play from two young players. Ghost received Norris votes last year for pete's sake. The team sucks this year, but don't lose sight of the talent that these guys possess. Trading low is a horrible way to accumulate talent. To even consider trading a guy that has a 4.5M cap hit (for 4 more years!) and has received Norris votes is absolutely insane.

 

[wbon22]

AWAZ!! Ggreat post as usual!!

A couple things catching up..



6. Trading Ghost and/or Provorov is ludicrous. 4 months of mediocre/poor play doesn't, and shouldn't, outshine 2+ years of extremely high level play from two young players. Ghost received Norris votes last year for pete's sake. The team sucks this year, but don't lose sight of the talent that these guys possess. Trading low is a horrible way to accumulate talent. To even consider trading a guy that has a 4.5M cap hit (for 4 more years!) and has received Norris votes is absolutely insane.

I agree to a degree about a lot of what you say. That said, I know that I have offered up Ghost as "not one of the youth movement who COULD be moved....but I wasn't looking to shop him. I think that would be a mistake. I think, at least in my case, there is growing frustration over how Ghost has developed and slipped back. Same with Provorov. But I think the entire d-core will benefit in the long term from a more structured team defensive system that is enforced.

We shall see...but yes... 48 points is a LOT worse than 69.

 

[lasgop8]

Whether you have 48 or 69 points it doesn't matter if youre watching the playoffs.

Time to blow this thing up as it is embarrassing at this point.

Hextal was a terrible free agent signer and if he was any good at GM he would've had the big club with three scoring lines in his 5 year tenure.

Yes he stocked the system but which of the players has superstar potential. The only one is Prov and he is falling from grace pretty fast. Which Prov do we see going forward this years Prov or last years nobody knows.

Ghost may have had a great season last year and gotten a few votes for Norris but the season before that he was minus 21 and minus 19 this year. IMO that doesn't make him untouchable and is ripe for trade.

Jake good bye, Simmer good bye and Gee can go along with them as he is our only trade chip we arent trading at his lowest value.

 

[awaz]

Whether you have 48 or 69 points it doesn't matter if youre watching the playoffs.

Time to blow this thing up as it is embarrassing at this point.

Hextal was a terrible free agent signer and if he was any good at GM he would've had the big club with three scoring lines in his 5 year tenure.

Yes he stocked the system but which of the players has superstar potential. The only one is Prov and he is falling from grace pretty fast. Which Prov do we see going forward this years Prov or last years nobody knows.

Ghost may have had a great season last year and gotten a few votes for Norris but the season before that he was minus 21 and minus 19 this year. IMO that doesn't make him untouchable and is ripe for trade.

Jake good bye, Simmer good bye and Gee can go along with them as he is our only trade chip we arent trading at his lowest value.

Curious as to who you think you're going to get back for all these guys. And how feasible you think making trades is in the NHL. G, Jake, Simmer, Ghost, plus I'm assuming you want to move Raffl as a rental. Plus Weise who is bad and AMac who is also bad. And obviously you're favorite JvR. I'd like to see one team that has made that many trades in short order.

I'm curious what the 2019-20 Flyers look like if las were running the team.

 

[lasgop8]

Curious as to who you think you're going to get back for all these guys. And how feasible you think making trades is in the NHL. G, Jake, Simmer, Ghost, plus I'm assuming you want to move Raffl as a rental. Plus Weise who is bad and AMac who is also bad. And obviously you're favorite JvR. I'd like to see one team that has made that many trades in short order.

I'm curious what the 2019-20 Flyers look like if las were running the team.

Id like to get back players who are better than finishing last in the league and missing the playoffs 4 out of the last 7 years like this current team has done.

 

[lasgop8]

Curious as to who you think you're going to get back for all these guys. And how feasible you think making trades is in the NHL. G, Jake, Simmer, Ghost, plus I'm assuming you want to move Raffl as a rental. Plus Weise who is bad and AMac who is also bad. And obviously you're favorite JvR. I'd like to see one team that has made that many trades in short order.

I'm curious what the 2019-20 Flyers look like if las were running the team.

Id also like to get players back that have a compete level unlike this current team and id also like to get back players that play for 60 minutes unlike this current team.

 

[chy1127]

I watched more of last nights game then planned. I am still amazed that players are trying high risk/low reward passes all the time. Every mistake we make turns into a golden opportunity for the other team. If I can see this, the coaches and players have to see it. Goalie #7 looked pretty darn good at times but was totally fucked by too many bone headed passes. Without some really impressive saves, the Caps easily score 7 last night. I have no problem benching Provy for a game or two to let him watch from above. If that doesn't help, then he never recovered from the shoulder injury last year.

 

[lasgop8]

I watched more of last nights game then planned. I am still amazed that players are trying high risk/low reward passes all the time. Every mistake we make turns into a golden opportunity for the other team. If I can see this, the coaches and players have to see it. Goalie #7 looked pretty darn good at times but was totally fucked by too many bone headed passes. Without some really impressive saves, the Caps easily score 7 last night. I have no problem benching Provy for a game or two to let him watch from above. If that doesn't help, then he never recovered from the shoulder injury last year.

I 100% agree about the shoulder injury. Provy looks so much less strong this season in corners, in front and even at the other end his shot is a step slow and i believe it is resulting in most of his unforced errors.

 

[awaz]

Id also like to get players back that have a compete level unlike this current team and id also like to get back players that play for 60 minutes unlike this current team.

So you want to trade guys who in your opinion have no compete level, don't play 60 minutes, can't finish, or make the playoffs. For guys that have compete level, play for 60 minutes, do finish, and consistently make the playoffs.

And you want them to be established NHL players that have proven they can do all these things, so that the Flyers improve right away.

You realize that's fantasyland right? You want to trade guys you don't like and think are bad players, for established good players. So they can be more competitive right now. Why would any NHL team trade the guys your looking for, for the guys you want to get rid of?

 

[awaz]

You need guys with spark. Guys that create energy in the game. And I will agree with you on that front, the Flyers don't have guys like that. Guys that go 110% on the forecheck shift after shift. Guys that hit people shift after shift. Guys that snow spray the goalie for no reason other than to get a rise out of the opponents. Those guys bring emotion to the team when they don't have it, and the Flyers don't have those guys. I 100% agree with you.

But those guys don't have to be your headline players. Marchand, Tkachuk, Wilson, those are top-line guys that can bring that energy too. But there aren't that many of those guys. And teams that have them aren't moving them because they're so rare.

 

[chy1127]

So you want to trade guys who in your opinion have no compete level, don't play 60 minutes, can't finish, or make the playoffs. For guys that have compete level, play for 60 minutes, do finish, and consistently make the playoffs.

And you want them to be established NHL players that have proven they can do all these things, so that the Flyers improve right away.

You realize that's fantasyland right? You want to trade guys you don't like and think are bad players, for established good players. So they can be more competitive right now. Why would any NHL team trade the guys your looking for, for the guys you want to get rid of?

Hard to turn our trash to gold.

 

[dspice07]

Hard to turn our trash to gold.

I don't know if it is impossible. I feel like through the years there have been teams willing to trade for people with proven stats and justify by needing a change of scenery. Simmonds is still valued apparently around the league, and the risk/reward is probably justifiable since he will be a UFA. Voracek is an average 60-70 point player every year. Probably want him on last years pace for that contract but I think there would have to be a market for him. Just because we are tired of them doesnt mean someone else wouldnt be willing if they have a need and are in a playoff run.

 

[chy1127]

I don't know if it is impossible. I feel like through the years there have been teams willing to trade for people with proven stats and justify by needing a change of scenery. Simmonds is still valued apparently around the league, and the risk/reward is probably justifiable since he will be a UFA. Voracek is an average 60-70 point player every year. Probably want him on last years pace for that contract but I think there would have to be a market for him. Just because we are tired of them doesnt mean someone else wouldnt be willing if they have a need and are in a playoff run.

I agree that Simmonds and Jake will have value. Couts, G, Provy and Ghost all have value, but do you think they bring a great return for value?

 

[lasgop8]

So you want to trade guys who in your opinion have no compete level, don't play 60 minutes, can't finish, or make the playoffs. For guys that have compete level, play for 60 minutes, do finish, and consistently make the playoffs.

And you want them to be established NHL players that have proven they can do all these things, so that the Flyers improve right away.

You realize that's fantasyland right? You want to trade guys you don't like and think are bad players, for established good players. So they can be more competitive right now. Why would any NHL team trade the guys your looking for, for the guys you want to get rid of?

You never know until you try. What we do know for sure is the current players on this team do not compete for this franchise and dont play 60 minutes per night why would we want to continue to have those player in our organization. We need player who care to make this team better and at least compete if they cant.

 

[awaz]

I don't know if it is impossible. I feel like through the years there have been teams willing to trade for people with proven stats and justify by needing a change of scenery. Simmonds is still valued apparently around the league, and the risk/reward is probably justifiable since he will be a UFA. Voracek is an average 60-70 point player every year. Probably want him on last years pace for that contract but I think there would have to be a market for him. Just because we are tired of them doesnt mean someone else wouldnt be willing if they have a need and are in a playoff run.

If the arguments are phrased in this fashion, I'm totally fine with having the discussion. But for page after page it's post after post of how terrible these guys are without any acknowledgement that they are in fact good hockey players, not trash ones.

It drives me crazy when people don't at least acknowledge that the guys we're talking about as the core, or the Ghost/Provorovs, are actually very good hockey players. They don't suck. You can struggle for periods of time without being a garbage player, it happens all the time. If you trade players every time they're struggling, you're going to end up selling low on everyone and have very little actual talent. Energy and "playing for 60 minutes" doesn't win hockey games if you actually suck at hockey.

 

[lasgop8]

Hard to turn our trash to gold.

You never know until there is an attempt to do so. I do know for sure we have trash and if we keep trash we stay the same old trashy team as the last 7 years.

 

[awaz]

You never know until you try. What we do know for sure is the current players on this team do not compete for this franchise and dont play 60 minutes per night why would we want to continue to have those player in our organization. We need player who care to make this team better and at least compete if they cant.

How do you know they haven't tried!?!? You tell me all the time that I phrase things as fact that aren't fact. Maybe they have tried to trade these guys and they don't like the returns. If the best return they can get for Voracek is effort guy Bryan Rust, do you still want to make the trade?

 

[lasgop8]

If the arguments are phrased in this fashion, I'm totally fine with having the discussion. But for page after page it's post after post of how terrible these guys are without any acknowledgement that they are in fact good hockey players, not trash ones.

It drives me crazy when people don't at least acknowledge that the guys we're talking about as the core, or the Ghost/Provorovs, are actually very good hockey players. They don't suck. You can struggle for periods of time without being a garbage player, it happens all the time. If you trade players every time they're struggling, you're going to end up selling low on everyone and have very little actual talent. Energy and "playing for 60 minutes" doesn't win hockey games if you actually suck at hockey.

Because we want the core gone doesn't mean they suck it means they arent needed in Philly as we have them and are the worst team in the league and missed the playoffs 4 of 7 years with those players.

 

[lasgop8]

How do you know they haven't tried!?!? You tell me all the time that I phrase things as fact that aren't fact. Maybe they have tried to trade these guys and they don't like the returns. If the best return they can get for Voracek is effort guy Bryan Rust, do you still want to make the trade?

How do you know they did try? Cmon why would we entertain a trade of Voracek for Rust that is just silly we both know that isn't what the Flyers tried and failed to do.