10,000 Posts for a Flyers Cup in 2019

[lasgop8]

Haha maaaaannnn...I have not been here in a while but I thought I remembered how much you disliked JVR. He's picking up right where he left off with us. Great signing!

Its embarrassing that JVR does absolutely nothing but stand in front of the net on PP1. We already had that guy in Simmonds who does much more all around the ice in which we may lose Simmer for sub par value because we paid Big Puss instead of Simmer.

 

[lasgop8]

Most of the time 50 point scorers are doing it either in the shadow of a 100 pt guy, or alongside one. If/when you deal Giroux away, you’re not just trading your best and most productive player, you’re trading the guy that teams gameplan around. The guy that teams put their #1 dman on, or shutdown center on. Those 50 point players turn in to 30 point players when teams are gameplanning for them.

You’re not just trading Giroux. You’re asking Couturier, or Patrick, to step up and produce against the best defense NHL teams have to offer.

There’s only one guy on this roster that I trust to ‘carry a line’ and produce against that kind of scrutiny and it’s Claude Giroux.

That’s why superstars are so important. It’s not just the production, it’s the production in the hardest matchups. It creates opportunities for other players.

All i know is we 'arent doing anything with this core for the longest time and its got to change.

 

[lasgop8]

Its funny its just about time for us to make our annual December run of 11-3 or 12-2 and everyone thinks were good again and we sneak into the playoffs on the back of our December run and get blasted out of the first round or miss the playoffs by a couple of points.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

 

[awaz]

All i know is we 'arent doing anything with this core for the longest time and its got to change.

I'm fine with that stance, my only point is what I said earlier, breaking up the core puts them further away and less competitive in the short term. You're not going to improve by trading G for two 50 point scorers.

 

[awaz]

To me though, they wouldn't have hired Hextall and let him have the helm for 5 years just to blow up the core now. The fact that they fired Hextall mid-season means they bought in and expected this year to be a significant step forward. It wasn't, Hextall wasn't willing to change, so they fired him. They're going to ride or die with this core at least this season.

I expect his firing to result in a big shakeup, but I don't see it being a Giroux trade or even a Voracek trade. I expect it to be more along the lines of trading one of the big name prospects (Farabee, Frost, Myers) and some "futures" (1st/2nd round picks) for NHL help. Likely a goaltender, back up plan would be a 3C that can kill penalties.

I also expect the coaching staff to be let go when the new GM is brought in and can hire in his guys.

I would be SHOCKED, if they kept the coaching staff or traded away the core. If they were content with a 'rebuilding' type season, they would've just been patient with Hextall.

 

[lasgop8]

I'm fine with that stance, my only point is what I said earlier, breaking up the core puts them further away and less competitive in the short term. You're not going to improve by trading G for two 50 point scorers.

You say that like its a fact when its only your opinion.There are teams out there without superstars who are just as good and better than us without any superstars. Montreal come as to mind and Vegas who just went to the cup is another ,Rags are playing well with no star power

 

[awaz]

You say that like its a fact when its only your opinion.There are teams out there without superstars who are just as good and better than us without any superstars. Montreal come as to mind and Vegas who just went to the cup is another ,Rags are playing well with no star power

Montreal is playing above their roster. We can revisit them at the end of the year. Same for the Rags. Vegas went to the cup and they suck this year. And all 3 of them have a great equalizer that the Flyers do not, good goaltending.

But you win cups on star-power.

Caps - Ovechkin/Kuznetzov
Pens - Cros/Malkin
Hawks - Kane/Keith
Kings - Kopitar/Doughty
Bruins - Bergeron/Chara
Wings - Zetterberg/Datsyuk
Ducks - Getzlaf/Perry
Canes - Staal (one team in 15 years didn't have 2 future hall of famers leading the way)
Lightning - St Louis/Lecavalier

There's your past 15 years worth of Stanley Cup champions. If you get rid of Giroux and Voracek as suggested, who are you filling in those blanks with? Couturier/Provorov? That's not getting you there.

It's not just my opinion, all the stats back it up. You need stars. And you don't trade stars and get better. Find me an example in the last 15 years where a team traded their star player and got better in the near future. Just one is all I ask.

 

[dspice07]

Montreal is playing above their roster. We can revisit them at the end of the year. Same for the Rags. Vegas went to the cup and they suck this year. And all 3 of them have a great equalizer that the Flyers do not, good goaltending.

But you win cups on star-power.

Caps - Ovechkin/Kuznetzov
Pens - Cros/Malkin
Hawks - Kane/Keith
Kings - Kopitar/Doughty
Bruins - Bergeron/Chara
Wings - Zetterberg/Datsyuk
Ducks - Getzlaf/Perry
Canes - Staal (one team in 15 years didn't have 2 future hall of famers leading the way)
Lightning - St Louis/Lecavalier

There's your past 15 years worth of Stanley Cup champions. If you get rid of Giroux and Voracek as suggested, who are you filling in those blanks with? Couturier/Provorov? That's not getting you there.

It's not just my opinion, all the stats back it up. You need stars. And you don't trade stars and get better. Find me an example in the last 15 years where a team traded their star player and got better in the near future. Just one is all I ask.

Jeff Skinner and Matt Duchene as FA's!

 

[mall3013]

Montreal is playing above their roster. We can revisit them at the end of the year. Same for the Rags. Vegas went to the cup and they suck this year. And all 3 of them have a great equalizer that the Flyers do not, good goaltending.

But you win cups on star-power.

Caps - Ovechkin/Kuznetzov
Pens - Cros/Malkin
Hawks - Kane/Keith
Kings - Kopitar/Doughty
Bruins - Bergeron/Chara
Wings - Zetterberg/Datsyuk
Ducks - Getzlaf/Perry
Canes - Staal (one team in 15 years didn't have 2 future hall of famers leading the way)
Lightning - St Louis/Lecavalier

There's your past 15 years worth of Stanley Cup champions. If you get rid of Giroux and Voracek as suggested, who are you filling in those blanks with? Couturier/Provorov? That's not getting you there.

It's not just my opinion, all the stats back it up. You need stars. And you don't trade stars and get better. Find me an example in the last 15 years where a team traded their star player and got better in the near future. Just one is all I ask.

I really can't think of any with maybe the Bruins trading Seguin to the Stars. Bruins were stacked anyway like you mentioned with Bergeron and Chara.

 

[awaz]

If you want to trade Giroux, more likely than not it will be a Jeff Carter for Voracek and a 1st or Mike Richards for Simmonds and Schenn type deals. Stars get traded for prospects and picks. That's the cycle of the NHL. The contenders are looking to "add now" are the only ones interested in adding stars, but they don't want to trade away NHL pieces, so it's picks and prospects. Rebuilding teams aren't interested in Giroux's salary or parting with any of their future pieces.

So you're only hope for an 'equal' trade is finding another team that had higher expectations than what they're achieving currently. Right now that's Florida, Pittsburgh, LA, or St. Louis (IMO). The Pens, Kings, and Blues are all over the cap. So they need to send at least as much money back.

In LA, they either have to move more than one contract back, or it's Kopitar for Giroux. Probably not happening. They could do something like Tyler Toffoli and Jeff Carter / Dustin Brown. Toffoli and Carter is probably the most attractive, but Carter is 33 and signed through 2022. Do you really want that? Plus I think they're better with Giroux than with Toffoli and Carter.

In Pitt, Cros and Malkin are the only even up guys, those aren't happening. Kessel and Sheahan? Hornqvist and Rust? Maatta and Kessel? Doubt the Pens are going to move dmen since they're already weak there. Any of that look as attractive as Giroux?

St. Louis, this is one option where I could see something. They're in a very similar spot, upset that the core hasn't been able to achieve more. They've already fired their coach. Would you do a Tarasenko for Giroux+ trade, knowing that Tarasenko is part of a similar 'this core doesn't have it' conversation? Probably have to add something big in there since Tarasenko is only 26 and on a reasonable 7.5M through 2023 deal, but he's more one dimensional than Giroux and his best season was still less than 1.0 pt/game.

Florida, unfortunately for them it might be pack it in and wait for next year with the Luongo and Trochek injuries. Even if they aren't at that point, they'll have to move at least two pieces to make up the salary, I don't think they'd be interested in Bjugstad and Dadonov for Giroux. They just traded for Hoffman so probably not looking to move him.

 

[lasgop8]

Montreal is playing above their roster. We can revisit them at the end of the year. Same for the Rags. Vegas went to the cup and they suck this year. And all 3 of them have a great equalizer that the Flyers do not, good goaltending.

But you win cups on star-power.

Caps - Ovechkin/Kuznetzov
Pens - Cros/Malkin
Hawks - Kane/Keith
Kings - Kopitar/Doughty
Bruins - Bergeron/Chara
Wings - Zetterberg/Datsyuk
Ducks - Getzlaf/Perry
Canes - Staal (one team in 15 years didn't have 2 future hall of famers leading the way)
Lightning - St Louis/Lecavalier

There's your past 15 years worth of Stanley Cup champions. If you get rid of Giroux and Voracek as suggested, who are you filling in those blanks with? Couturier/Provorov? That's not getting you there.

It's not just my opinion, all the stats back it up. You need stars. And you don't trade stars and get better. Find me an example in the last 15 years where a team traded their star player and got better in the near future. Just one is all I ask.

Giroux Voracek Couts Simmer Ghost - We have star power and cant get it done time to shake it up.

 

[awaz]

I really can't think of any with maybe the Bruins trading Seguin to the Stars. Bruins were stacked anyway like you mentioned with Bergeron and Chara.

Yep, Seguin was not their star. Not even close really, he was a young depth player for them (though he was playing great). Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, and Chara were the core of that team.

But that is a pretty close example. Just so happens Seguin also fit in to the 'young prospects' category too. Lol @ Toronto for that one.

 

[lasgop8]

If you want to trade Giroux, more likely than not it will be a Jeff Carter for Voracek and a 1st or Mike Richards for Simmonds and Schenn type deals. Stars get traded for prospects and picks. That's the cycle of the NHL. The contenders are looking to "add now" are the only ones interested in adding stars, but they don't want to trade away NHL pieces, so it's picks and prospects. Rebuilding teams aren't interested in Giroux's salary or parting with any of their future pieces.

So you're only hope for an 'equal' trade is finding another team that had higher expectations than what they're achieving currently. Right now that's Florida, Pittsburgh, LA, or St. Louis (IMO). The Pens, Kings, and Blues are all over the cap. So they need to send at least as much money back.

In LA, they either have to move more than one contract back, or it's Kopitar for Giroux. Probably not happening. They could do something like Tyler Toffoli and Jeff Carter / Dustin Brown. Toffoli and Carter is probably the most attractive, but Carter is 33 and signed through 2022. Do you really want that? Plus I think they're better with Giroux than with Toffoli and Carter.

In Pitt, Cros and Malkin are the only even up guys, those aren't happening. Kessel and Sheahan? Hornqvist and Rust? Maatta and Kessel? Doubt the Pens are going to move dmen since they're already weak there. Any of that look as attractive as Giroux?

St. Louis, this is one option where I could see something. They're in a very similar spot, upset that the core hasn't been able to achieve more. They've already fired their coach. Would you do a Tarasenko for Giroux+ trade, knowing that Tarasenko is part of a similar 'this core doesn't have it' conversation? Probably have to add something big in there since Tarasenko is only 26 and on a reasonable 7.5M through 2023 deal, but he's more one dimensional than Giroux and his best season was still less than 1.0 pt/game.

Florida, unfortunately for them it might be pack it in and wait for next year with the Luongo and Trochek injuries. Even if they aren't at that point, they'll have to move at least two pieces to make up the salary, I don't think they'd be interested in Bjugstad and Dadonov for Giroux. They just traded for Hoffman so probably not looking to move him.

I wouldve a Schmaltz and DeBrincaqt trade for Giroux. You have to be more creative with your trade proposals.

 

[lasgop8]

I really can't think of any with maybe the Bruins trading Seguin to the Stars. Bruins were stacked anyway like you mentioned with Bergeron and Chara.

Were supposedly stacked with Giroux and Couts and Jake and Ghost where are our names in that Stanley cup line up?

 

[awaz]

Giroux Voracek Couts Simmer Ghost - We have star power and cant get it done time to shake it up.

As I've been saying, I get that. But you have to work within the confines of the NHL, the teams, and the salary cap. If we could trade Giroux straight up for McDavid or Hall or Seguin or Benn, or any of those elite level guys, sure let's do it. But that's not the return you'd get for Giroux. Those teams have no reason to do that. If you're trading Giroux, more likely than not you're pushing the rebuild can down the road.

I see a potential Giroux trade as trading Giroux to a contending team and pilfering their best U22 player, a 1st round pick and taking back their worst contract.

 

[awaz]

I wouldve a Schmaltz and DeBrincaqt trade for Giroux. You have to be more creative with your trade proposals.

DeBrincat - 778k
Schmaltz - 925k

Giroux - 8.25M

Hawks would have been $5M over the cap. No go.

 

[Psych-Ward]

 

[lasgop8]

DeBrincat - 778k
Schmaltz - 925k

Giroux - 8.25M

Hawks would have been $5M over the cap. No go.

Im talking about that type of trade where we could get salaries to match instead of the ones you provided.
Schwartz and Schenn is another type of deal im talking about.

 

[awaz]

Im talking about that type of trade where we could get salaries to match instead of the ones you provided.
Schwartz and Schenn is another type of deal im talking about.

That's my whole point though. There's tons of guys out there that I would trade Giroux for. I can't think of one situation where the kind(s) of player(s) are:

1. Available
2. Their current team is in a position and has a desire to add Giroux that is strong enough to part with those kinds of players.
3. The other team has the cap situation, combined with the ingoing/outgoing salaries in the trade, to make a move for Giroux.

Without all 3 of those things being true, a trade can't be made.

 

[awaz]

Im talking about that type of trade where we could get salaries to match instead of the ones you provided.
Schwartz and Schenn is another type of deal im talking about.

Schwartz - 5.35M through 2021 / 26 years old / 59 points in 62 games last year (78pt pace)
Schenn - 5.125M through 2020 / 27 years old / 70pts in 82 games last year

Giroux - 8.25M through 2022 / 30 years old / 102pts in 82 games last year

If you're the Blues, do you make that deal?

148 points (pace) out of 10.4M in cap space, two guys in the middle of their prime
or
102 points out of 8.25M in cap space, one guy who is at the tail end of his prime

If you can convince the Blues to do that deal, I'm on board, but I think you're going to find it tough sledding.