So glad we decided.....

[Darrell Green Fan]

You just proved our point. Terry had a great team surrounding him as he grew out of his ways. Terry isn't the only one, I've cited numerous franchise QBs that started off as interception machines. That's exactly what we are preaching. Build the team, find a QB that has the skill sets, and let them develop. No one is saying KC ha to be that guy, but let's at least give him a chance to grow before we throw him aside and waste another first pick, or 2, on another over hyped. QB. Thanks.

We all understand that young QBs throw picks. But this is year 4 yet you continue to compare him with QBs from 30 years ago in their rookie season. Would you not agree that by the end of year 4 he has had more than enough of an opportunty to prove he is the QB to build around?

And comparing INT stats is unfair. Go look up the career INT stats of all time greats like Bradshaw, Namath, Stabler etc. They are horrendous by today's standards.

 

[j_y19]

We all understand that young QBs throw picks. But this is year 4 yet you continue to compare him with QBs from 30 years ago in their rookie season. Would you not agree that by the end of year 4 he has had more than enough of an opportunty to prove he is the QB to build around?

And comparing INT stats is unfair. Go look up the career INT stats of all time greats like Bradshaw, Namath, Stabler etc. They are horrendous by today's standards.

I don't think it's unfair at all. It just proves the point that stands the test of time. Inexperienced QBs make mistakes. KC may be in his 4th year, but is still inexperienced at it relates to snaps taken. I not a shill for KC. I put the chances that he becomes a game manager level QB as I described above at less than 50%. But he is the only horse we've got to ride anymore. And he does have skills. And his flaws have been overcome before. That's the point of looking back in history to see if it has been done. And history has proven that it can be done, but it's no guarantee. Griffins flaws, however, are not ones that we canpoint to as being overcome.

But the whole point of this debate is the desperation in chasing that elusive franchise QB. Countless picks, dollars, and wasted seasons have been spent by us and others because of this desperation. Do franchise QBs vault teams from the pack to the top? Absolutely. But the chances of landing one, even with the first pick in the draft for 3 straight years, is very small. You have a greater chance of success by going after a game manager and using those picks to make the rest of the team a powerhouse. It is my belief that success will be achieved earlier through this strategy than the one where we swing for the fence everytime and whiff the vast majority of time, wasting those valuable resources.

 

[j_y19]

2014 Championship Game QBs

Brady, Luck, Rodgers, Wilson

2013

Brady, Peyton, Wilson, Kap


2012

Ryan, Kap, Brady, Flacco

Seeing a pattern here? Again I coinsider Wilson to be a top QB, not sure how many more big plays in big moments the guy needs to make before others agree. I also maintain that you don''t have to have an all time great, just a top QB and yes I put Matt Ryan in that catagory.

So you have Kap and Flacco represent 3 out of the 12 appearances and again Flacco plays like a franchise QB in the playoffs. And keep in mind there are only 9 or so of them throughout the league yet they represented 75% of the spots.

Wilson is not a franchise QB. If he were on this team the last few years, would we have been a playoff team? No. He alone can't carry a team. So,the only pattern I see is that every year there are one or more teams in the playoffs with game managers at the helm. And they do occasionally win the big one.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Wilson is not a franchise QB. If he were on this team the last few years, would we have been a playoff team? No. He alone can't carry a team. So,the only pattern I see is that every year there are one or more teams in the playoffs with game managers at the helm. And they do occasionally win the big one.

We'll just disagree on Wilson then. KFFL has a lot of Hawks fans. The opinion of every one of them is Luck would be the only QB in the league who they would take over him when age is factored in. Who would you rather have on 3rd and 8 with 2 minutes to go in the NFCCG, Russell Wilson or Andy Daulton? They are simply not the same level of player, not even close in my opinion. Sure that team with Andy Daulton makes the playoffs but no way you can assume they end up a yard from back to back titles. Russel Wilson played a huge role in their success, he has made a ton of big plays when it mattered the most,. "Game managers" simply do not.

Back to Cousins you posted that there is a 50% chance he will elevate to "game manager" status. Sorry there is nothing wrong at all with fans wanting more than that out of our QB. Mark Rypien was the poster child for your method. He was proof I was told that you can win it all with a QB at that level.. So what happened to Mark Rypien? After the magic wore off he reverted to, well, Mark Rypien. A few years later he was calling the moving van. Sorry as I said I want more than that.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Wilson is not a franchise QB. If he were on this team the last few years, would we have been a playoff team? No. He alone can't carry a team. So,the only pattern I see is that every year there are one or more teams in the playoffs with game managers at the helm. And they do occasionally win the big one.

The problem is that Cousins isn't even a game manager at this pt. A decent game manager does not throw the ball away on a regular basis or consistently choke in the clutch. Now it is entirely possible that Cousins turns this around this season. However - if he doesn't change his tendencies and the Skins have a very bad record then I honestly don't see why they should be obligated to retain the guy.

Forget the other QBs- let's consider them gone for now. I am strictly talking about evaluating Cousins on his own. If he plays most/all of the 16 games & has similar problems to the past & the Redskins lose most of those games do you honestly see a reason to retain him? By that time he will have had 4 years and more than enough games under his belt. NFL teams don't usually wait on players for much longer than this.

I will cheer like crazy for Cousins this season (& any other Skins QB that takes the field). However - if he doesn't show a significant turnaround I will gladly welcome another QB. Now cmon Kirk - prove us all wrong.

 

[j_y19]

We'll just disagree on Wilson then. KFFL has a lot of Hawks fans. The opinion of every one of them is Luck would be the only QB in the league who they would take over him. Who would you rather have on 3rd and 8 with 2 minutes to go in the NFCCG, Russell Wilson or Andy Daulton?

Back to Cousins you posted that there is a 50% chance he will elevate to "game manager" status. Sorry there is nothing wrong at all with fans wanting more than that out of our QB. Mark Rypien was the poster child for your method. He was proof I was told that you can win it all with a QB like that. So what happened to Mark Rypien? After the magic wore off he revertd to, well, Mark Rypien. A few years later he was calling the moving van. Sorry as I said I want more

Oh, I would love to have more also. In fact, I do believe we should draft a QB in the next draft or two. Just not waste a top pick on one. Look for the value pick on one with the right skill set and experience, but maybe not caught up in the annual QB hysteria. One we can groom while building up the rest of the team around him. Hopefully
KC grows enough that he can hold down the fort until his replacement is ready.

 

[j_y19]

The problem is that Cousins isn't even a game manager at this pt. A decent game manager does not throw the ball away on a regular basis or consistently choke in the clutch. Now it is entirely possible that Cousins turns this around this season. However - if he doesn't change his tendencies and the Skins have a very bad record then I honestly don't see why they should be obligated to retain the guy.

Forget the other QBs- let's consider them gone for now. I am strictly talking about evaluating Cousins on his own. If he plays most/all of the 16 games & has similar problems to the past & the Redskins lose most of those games do you honestly see a reason to retain him? By that time he will have had 4 years and more than enough games under his belt. NFL teams don't usually wait on players for much longer than this.

I will cheer like crazy for Cousins this season (& any other Skins QB that takes the field). However - if he doesn't show a significant turnaround I will gladly welcome another QB. Now cmon Kirk - prove us all wrong.

I think this is reasonable. One full season at the helm and he is still making the same mistakes will be telling. Again, my argument is less about if KC is the guy and more about how we acquire his replacement.

 

[j_y19]

We'll just disagree on Wilson then. KFFL has a lot of Hawks fans. The opinion of every one of them is Luck would be the only QB in the league who they would take over him when age is factored in. Who would you rather have on 3rd and 8 with 2 minutes to go in the NFCCG, Russell Wilson or Andy Daulton? They are simply not the same level of player, not even close in my opinion. Sure that team with Andy Daulton makes the playoffs but no way you can assume they end up a yard from back to back titles. Russel Wilson played a huge role in their success, he has made a ton of big plays when it mattered the most,. "Game managers" simply do not.

Back to Cousins you posted that there is a 50% chance he will elevate to "game manager" status. Sorry there is nothing wrong at all with fans wanting more than that out of our QB. Mark Rypien was the poster child for your method. He was proof I was told that you can win it all with a QB at that level.. So what happened to Mark Rypien? After the magic wore off he reverted to, well, Mark Rypien. A few years later he was calling the moving van. Sorry as I said I want more than that.

As for Wilson vs dalton, on the surface, I would obviously take Wilson. But the real question is if you swapped them, would dalton be successful on that loaded Seahawks team and would cincy still be a middling team with Wilson at the helm? I would argue yes to both of those scenarios.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

It has been said by many that the Bengals had as much talent as any team in the AFC outside of the QB position the past few years. But Daulton has held them back. Put Wilson, a guy who has proven to have that magical "it", on that team and I'm pretty sure they don't go out in the first round every year. On the flip side we have seen Wilson make a ton of plays with his feet when the play breaks down at crunch time. He has converted a lot of 3rd and longs in the playoffs with the game on the line this way by improvising. These are plays Andy Daulton simply does not make. There is absolutely no evidence to date that Andy Daulton would have been able to complete thst miracle comeback against Green Bay last year. But with Wilson frankly it wasn't a huge surprise to a lot of us because he's risen to the occassioin so manyn imes before in his young career. So to answer your question my answers are no and no.

To answer your question is Wilson enough to turn this Redskins team into the playoffs? Of course not, he is not Peyton Manning. But when you build this team as we both understand has to happen it should be obvious that Russell Wilson will take them further than Kirk Cousins ever will.

 

[j_y19]

It has been said by many that the Bengals had as much talent as any team in the AFC outside of the QB position the past few years. But Daulton has held them back. Put Wilson, a guy who has proven to have that magical "it", on that team and I'm pretty sure they don't go out in the first round every year. On the flkip side we have seen Wilson make a ton of plays with his feet when the play breaks down at crunch time. He has converted a lot of 3rd and longs in the playoffs with the game on the line this way by improvising. These are plays Andy Daulton simply does not make. So to answer your question my answers are no and no.

To answer your question is Wilson enough to turn this Redskins team into the playoffs? Of course not, he is not Peyton Manning. But when you build this team as we both understand has to happen it should be obvious that Russell Wilson will take them further than Kirk Cousins ever will.

ok, we just disagree about wilson. I believe his success is due, in large part, to his supporting cast and to the scheme they use him in. no argument if he is better than KC. clearly. again, I'm not saying kc is the proven answer. in fact, I've been pretty clear that I recognize his chances of being the guy are not good.

 

[j_y19]

It has been said by many that the Bengals had as much talent as any team in the AFC outside of the QB position the past few years. But Daulton has held them back. Put Wilson, a guy who has proven to have that magical "it", on that team and I'm pretty sure they don't go out in the first round every year. On the flkip side we have seen Wilson make a ton of plays with his feet when the play breaks down at crunch time. He has converted a lot of 3rd and longs in the playoffs with the game on the line this way by improvising. These are plays Andy Daulton simply does not make. So to answer your question my answers are no and no.

To answer your question is Wilson enough to turn this Redskins team into the playoffs? Of course not, he is not Peyton Manning. But when you build this team as we both understand has to happen it should be obvious that Russell Wilson will take them further than Kirk Cousins ever will.

Ironicly, Wilson is the exact type of QB that we should target in the draft. Overlooked in the hysteria due to perceived flaws, comes from a less visible program, under the radar, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and allows you to spend resources on building the rest of the team.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

ok, we just disagree about wilson. I believe his success is due, in large part, to his supporting cast and to the scheme they use him in. no argument if he is better than KC. clearly. again, I'm not saying kc is the proven answer. in fact, I've been pretty clear that I recognize his chances of being the guy are not good.

Agreed on the scheme and team around him. But nobody deducted points from Joe Montana for that. See my last edit of my post, do you really see any evidence that Andy Daulton pulls off that miracle against Green Bay last year?

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Ironicly, Wilson is the exact type of QB that we should target in the draft. Overlooked in the hysteria due to perceived flaws, comes from a less visible program, under the radar, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and allows you to spend resources on building the rest of the team.

Agreed. But then again our genius GM did not take Aaron Rodgers as expected, opting for Alex Smith. LOL

 

[j_y19]

Agreed on the scheme and team around him. But nobody deducted points from Joe Montana for that. See my last edit of my post, do you really see any evidence that Andy Daultoin pulls off that miracle against Green Bay last year?

no, but it was just that....a miracle. some might equate that to lucky. but not sure why we are arguing about Dalton. never mentioned him as the guy.

 

[j_y19]

Agreed. But then again our genius GM did not take Aaron Rodgers as expected, opting for Alex Smith. LOL

ouch. again supporting my belief that using a high first is a crap shoot at best on anyone not named Peyton, Luck or Elway.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I bring up Daulton because he is the level of QB we are disagreeing on. I could switch out Mathew Stafford, Alex Smith and a few others that have proven to be just not quite good enough. And that is the QB I am trying to avoid, the one that is just good enough to get you beat.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Agreed. But then again our genius GM did not take Aaron Rodgers as expected, opting for Alex Smith. LOL

It happens. Every GM makes at least some mistakes. Beathard made more than his fair share. What matters are the overall results over time & I believe that SM has done pretty well in this respect. Good to see that you are such a fan of his.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I bring up Daulton because he is the level of QB we are disagreeing on. I could switch out Mathew Stafford, Alex Smith and a few others that have proven to be just not quite good enough. And that is the QB I am trying to avoid, the one that is just good enough to get you beat.

Dalton may be a lost cause. However - I don't believe that guys like Smith or Stafford are the only reasons why their team didn't progress further. I really don't think that someone like E. Manning or R. Wilson did that much to make their team champions. I truly believe that in both cases it was more the result of the rest of the team especially the defense for both.

In any case - for the time being - if the Redskins had someone at the helm to take them to the Conf championship like Smith I would not be too unhappy. They need to start somewhere in building a winning culture - you don't just go from basement to SB.

 

[j_y19]

I bring up Daulton because he is the level of QB we are disagreeing on. I could switch out Mathew Stafford, Alex Smith and a few others that have proven to be just not quite good enough. And that is the QB I am trying to avoid, the one that is just good enough to get you beat.

Not to me he isn't. I put him in the journeyman category. Will probably have a long career, but eventually bounce around between teams and fluctuate as starter and backup. I lever mentioned him at any other level. Also, we may disagree on an individual, but that doesn't mean the overall theory is wrong.

 

[j_y19]

Dalton may be a lost cause. However - I don't believe that guys like Smith or Stafford are the only reasons why their team didn't progress further. I really don't think that someone like E. Manning or R. Wilson did that much to make their team champions. I truly believe that in both cases it was more the result of the rest of the team especially the defense for both.

In any case - for the time being - if the Redskins had someone at the helm to take them to the Conf championship like Smith I would not be too unhappy. They need to start somewhere in building a winning culture - you don't just go from basement to SB.

and therein lies my exact point. Build up the rest of the team with high picks and you can then put in a Wilson, stafford, etc and make a run. Avoid taking those high picks and spending it on an RG3, or Smith, etc because you have no ammo left to build the team to the caliber they need to be successful. In effect, you end up wasting those picks, time and again.