So...Shawn Thornton will probably need his own thread....

[evolver115]

It's a clean hit and a great hit. He should be prepared to answer the bell though imo. Arguing intent to hurt vs intent to injure is pointless because like I said, neither of us are Brooks orpik, and both of us are biased. All I'm saying is if you want to make a hit of the magnitude, you should be ready to answer for it. In the form of a fight, not a dirty mugging. I don't care if it's clean or not. If I'm Erikson's teammate there I'm gunna stand up for him. Just because it's clean doesn't mean you didn't seriously injure my teammate/friend

Other Pens in the post-game comments already were quoted as saying that Orpik wasn't going to be allowed to fight because of how short the Pens are right now on experienced d-man depth. Already playing without Scuderi and Martin.

The NHL keeps roster spots for the knuckle-daggers to 'police' each other and exact their pound of flesh. In fact, Pittsburgh's Neanderthal did in fact fight later in the game. If thorton or whomever wanted to make Orpik 'pay', then line him up with another clean hit, and make him pay. Thorton's strategy was not the way to go about it, and now the league has another black eye to contend with.

 

[awaz]

Why? If you are playing within the rules, making the type of play it is your job to make, why should you have to fight? Why, in particular, should you have to fight on your opponent's time frame? Thornton challenged Orpik with the Penguins on the attack. Dropping the gloves there would have been stupid.

And why would Orpik, playing well right now, and one of our better defensive blueliners, want to take himself off the ice for five minutes in exchange for a fourth-liner? It hurts the Penguins.

You shouldn't have to fight for playing hard. That's a ridiculous claim.

If you hurt someone, you should expect people to react. It's natural. They'll get penalized more for it and so be it. If orpik doesn't want to deal with what comes after, don't make the hit. When you make a hit like that and don't answer the bell, people take your number and target you later. Which, imo, is much more dangerous than just settling it all there.

(again, not excusing Thornton, please don't take it that way)

 

[Darkstone42]

If you hurt someone, you should expect people to react. It's natural. They'll get penalized more for it and so be it. If orpik doesn't want to deal with what comes after, don't make the hit. When you make a hit like that and don't answer the bell, people take your number and target you later. Which, imo, is much more dangerous than just settling it all there.

(again, not excusing Thornton, please don't take it that way)

We're talking about a contact sport. A contact sport played at high speeds. Are these players so unstable that any time one of their teammates looks hurt, they're going after the guy who they presume is responsible, even if it was on a legal play? If they are, they need to sort that out, and the behavior needs to be eliminated from the sport.

 

[awaz]

More on that. There is a very big difference between the hit that orpik laid and a run of the mill check. There's lots of force behind it and Erikson is essentially a sitting duck (keep your head up dude).

And yes, in a perfect world, Thornton can lay orpik out with a clean, but vicious check, later in the game. But what are the odds that he gets that opportunity? Hits like that happen maybe once or twice a week in the entire nhl. The frustration boils over and games devolve in to cheap shot fests.

 

[awaz]

We're talking about a contact sport. A contact sport played at high speeds. Are these players so unstable that any time one of their teammates looks hurt, they're going after the guy who they presume is responsible, even if it was on a legal play? If they are, they need to sort that out, and the behavior needs to be eliminated from the sport.

There's a difference between 'any time a teammate gets hurt' and 'when a teammate gets demolished in open ice, without the puck, with his head down'. Still a clean, or at most a minor for interference, but it was unnecessary. If you don't want to defend yourself after it, let him finish missing the pass and continue playing hockey.

 

[evolver115]

More on that. There is a very big difference between the hit that orpik laid and a run of the mill check. There's lots of force behind it and Erikson is essentially a sitting duck (keep your head up dude).

You said it best yourself. Keep your head up. That's all I ever read after Steckel's hit on Crosby.

"Keep your head up, Sid."

Thereby passing the responsibility to the player to protect himself. No one would be giving Malkin, Crosby or any other hated skill player wearing a Pens sweater this support if the roles were reversed.

Orpik did not deserve the later punishment he received for laying a clean hit. Especially not the mugging he ended up getting. That's garage league bullshit. It has no place in the NHL. If you want to make him pay, then blast him back with another clean but hard check. That's how the game was intended to be played. Not these jail yard scrums.

 

[pixburgher66]

Agreed.

I agree too...but they don't take non-suspension incidents into account...I think

 

[KennyBanyeah]

]If you hurt someone, you should expect people to react.[/B] It's natural. They'll get penalized more for it and so be it. If orpik doesn't want to deal with what comes after, don't make the hit. When you make a hit like that and don't answer the bell, people take your number and target you later. Which, imo, is much more dangerous than just settling it all there.

(again, not excusing Thornton, please don't take it that way)

Absolutely. However there is an important difference between expecting something and being expected to do something. Common sense dictates that Orpik should have expected to be targeted for some form of retribution. He should NOT be expected to fight for actions that are within the rules of the game.

If anyone who lays a big HAS to oblige the other team's tough guy for it, there will only be about 20-25 guys in the league willing to hit and only a handful of those can actually skate well enough to do it.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I agree too...but they don't take non-suspension incidents into account...I think

For the record they don't but who knows what goes on behind the curtain, so to speak.

 

[pixburgher66]

Awaz, I get your point, but disagree with the concept. It's something that hockey players believe, but I think it's horse poo. Hitting is an important part of the game. It's part of being physical, taking someone out of the play, leading to turnovers, maybe making them a bit sore, etc. Since it's an essential part of the game, and it's allowed to occur, and if illegal a ref should hypothetically take action. This right here is the issue with allowing players to police the game. It causes a lot of issues.

 

[awaz]

You said it best yourself. Keep your head up. That's all I ever read after Steckel's hit on Crosby.

"Keep your head up, Sid."

Thereby passing the responsibility to the player to protect himself. No one would be giving Malkin, Crosby or any other hated skill player wearing a Pens sweater this support if the roles were reversed.

Orpik did not deserve the later punishment he received for laying a clean hit. Especially not the mugging he ended up getting. That's garage league bullshit. It has no place in the NHL. If you want to make him pay, then blast him back with another clean but hard check. That's how the game was intended to be played. Not these jail yard scrums.

The steckel/Crosby play was a completely different type of collision. That one is much closer to the neal/Marchand collision in this one. It's an argument over intent. Anti-pens bias noted, I don't think steckel meant to hit Crosby, I do think Neal meant to hit Marchand.

I agree, orpik deserved to be laid out, on a clean hit, later in the game. But opportunities to make hits like that are few and far between. I would rather see the hitter answer the bell right then and there, then to let the Bruins hate fester until thee opportunity comes. That's when bad stuff happens.

And I'm aware of my anti-pens bias. But I've said this in many pervious threads where the pens aren't involved. Fighting after a clean but vicious hit is safer for everyone involved. If you don't want the fight, don't make the hit. If it reduces hitting in hockey, so be it.

 

[pixburgher66]

For the record they don't but who knows what goes on behind the curtain, so to speak.

WHEEL! OF! JUSTICCCCE!

Wasn't Neal suspended in the postseason vs. the Flyers though? Or am I mis-remembering that abomination?

 

[pixburgher66]

The steckel/Crosby play was a completely different type of collision. That one is much closer to the neal/Marchand collision in this one. It's an argument over intent. Anti-pens bias noted, I don't think steckel meant to hit Crosby, I do think Neal meant to hit Marchand.

I agree, orpik deserved to be laid out, on a clean hit, later in the game. But opportunities to make hits like that are few and far between. I would rather see the hitter answer the bell right then and there, then to let the Bruins hate fester until thee opportunity comes. That's when bad stuff happens.

And I'm aware of my anti-pens bias. But I've said this in many pervious threads where the pens aren't involved. Fighting after a clean but vicious hit is safer for everyone involved. If you don't want the fight, don't make the hit. If it reduces hitting in hockey, so be it.

I don't think you're defending Thornton's actions...but responsibility for what happened is SOLELY Thornton's. Orpik did SQUAT to deserve what he got. There's no rule saying you have to fight in any situation at all, even in the silly "code". Sure it may have defused the situation hypothetically, but Thornton needs some real self-reflection if he can't control himself.

 

[awaz]

Really, long story short:

I don't think it's realistic to expect teammates to react differently to their teammate being knocked out based on legality of the hit. Especially considering they probably can't see the hit with every angle and slow MO that we can with highlights. If it's even remotely questionable, and a guy gets hurt, expect to drop the gloves, and drop the gloves. End it then and there. It's the safest way to handle it.

 

[awaz]

I don't think you're defending Thornton's actions...but responsibility for what happened is SOLELY Thornton's. Orpik did SQUAT to deserve what he got. There's no rule saying you have to fight in any situation at all, even in the silly "code". Sure it may have defused the situation hypothetically, but Thornton needs some real self-reflection if he can't control himself.

All of this is well said, especially the bold.

 

[element1286]

Really, long story short:

I don't think it's realistic to expect teammates to react differently to their teammate being knocked out based on legality of the hit. Especially considering they probably can't see the hit with every angle and slow MO that we can with highlights. If it's even remotely questionable, and a guy gets hurt, expect to drop the gloves, and drop the gloves. End it then and there. It's the safest way to handle it.

Sure, but what if Shawn Thornton challenges Claude Giroux, does that still hold? Furthermore, what if Thornton caves his face in, and Giroux is out a long time?

 

[evolver115]

The steckel/Crosby play was a completely different type of collision[/B]. That one is much closer to the neal/Marchand collision in this one. It's an argument over intent. Anti-pens bias noted, I don't think steckel meant to hit Crosby, I do think Neal meant to hit Marchand.

I agree, orpik deserved to be laid out, on a clean hit, later in the game. But opportunities to make hits like that are few and far between. I would rather see the hitter answer the bell right then and there, then to let the Bruins hate fester until thee opportunity comes. That's when bad stuff happens.

And I'm aware of my anti-pens bias. But I've said this in many pervious threads where the pens aren't involved. Fighting after a clean but vicious hit is safer for everyone involved. If you don't want the fight, don't make the hit. If it reduces hitting in hockey, so be it.

We'll agree to disagree because that isn't an outcome I want see.

Orpik isn't a goon. He shouldn't be expected to fight a low-skill 4th line fighter because he laid a heavy body check. And he shouldn't be required to think he can't hit and play his position of defense because he doesn't want to fight. That's how people do get injured, or get beaten...by overthinking, instead of reacting.

 

[awaz]

Sure, but what if Shawn Thornton challenges Claude Giroux, does that still hold? Furthermore, what if Thornton caves his face in, and Giroux is out a long time?

I don't want Giroux making hits like that. For that exact reason. Good hard hits on players that have the puck and their head up, yes. Knocking Crosby on his rear end a couple years ago was great.

But if it's of questionable legality at full speed and potentially in the peripheral vision of goons like Thornton, I don't want him to make the hit.

 

[Johnnydollaz89]

Thornton isn't useless as some say, but what he did was one of the pussiest things I have ever seen done. He needs to be suspended for a min. Of 15 games, IMO. Scumbag move.

 

[element1286]

We'll agree to disagree because that isn't an outcome I want see.

Orpik isn't a goon. He shouldn't be expected to fight a low-skill 4th liner because he laid a heavy body check. And he shouldn't be required to think he can't hit and play his position of defense because he doesn't want to fight. That's how people do get injured, or get beaten...by overthinking, instead of reacting.

Yep, the fact that Thornton is somehow respectable or classy because he learned to be a boxer on skates so he can go around challenges non-fighters to fights to 'protect his teammates' is hilarious to me.

The 'code' is complete horseshit, it's a never ending cycle of violence that is completely illogical.