Official Name Debate Thread

[gkekoa]

It sounds like you and Dad have already made up your minds & decided to burry you heads in the sand & are not willing to consider other perspectives ... such as the one below.



Personally ... I do NOT feel very strong one way OR the other any more.

I LOVE this team because it reminds me of some great memories I shared with my mother at RFK as a kid before she left this Earth.

Despite what Dad says ... watching this team play, no matter the name, will still bring me those same feelings.

Dad and I have both based our opinion on fact. We have looked at the origin of the word, the use of it by the Indians in speeches, the use of it in schools where 90% of the students are Indians, and why Preston Marshall changed the name in the first place...it was in honor of his Indian friend.

Do you want me to change every word that people find offensive? What am I supposed to do about the word Jesus or Christmas? Am I supposed to stop using those words because atheists claim those words are offensive?

 

[skinsdad62]

and this is why I want to keep all of this stuff in one thread ....

so his father in law didnt say it but the other parts of the article are valid

 

[Stymietee]

come on you cant tell the difference between the connotation of "idiot " as opposed to the connotation of some one being "ignorant " ?

Again the Smithsonian says the word originated from the Indians themselves . The Smithsonian isnt exactly a hotbed of disinformation

My question is how can you be a "redskins fan" and be against the name ? Once the name changes so does the history the nostaglia, and everything else . new name , new franchise .

how could you want that ?

you have dodged this since i 1st laid it out

and again most indians ARE NOT offended by it and a team in AZ which is 93 % Indian love the name . The Onieda nation , which a few crack pots , are complaining about the name still allow their own area high school team to be called redskins

you wait in a year or 2 you will see some donation made to the tribe and this will go on the back burner

this is and has been about a shakedown for money by race baiters and their allies

and once the fat cat guilt tripping so they feel good members of the media get the name changed they will abandon the indians plight in a hot minute

dont be among the saps that follow this "cause"

First it is not the connotation that is at issue here....it is by your own admonition the name calling that is at question. I was called something that I found offensive (as would virtually everyone) returned fire and you called me and unfairly not the originator to task. I would not have an issue with your position.....IF....you had warned us both.

Next I have no issue with how the word became so. It is interesting that both of you limited your research to its origin. curiosity alone should have been enough for either or both of you to investigate why it is now offensive to so many of us. That is telling!!!

To be clear, all you have to do is Goggle, reskins scalps for bounties, Scalps for bounties, scalping, Bounties | The U.S.-Dakota War of 1862....OR....ANYTHING of your choosing related to this bloody practice. You'll find that the word took on new meaning.

Now, directly to your question...........This is my hometown team, that is why I am a fan of it. This might be a little too old for you (although we both are retired and former military) But I was raised to believe that any man who could not support and defend his own home ( homeland, hometown) was not much of a man.I have passed this on to my children and now my grandchildren. I have been a fan almost from birth, my first memory goes back to the trade with philly for Sonny Jurgensen. I never dodged your question, it has been obvious from my entry here that your mind was made up and more focused on defending your position and that of the other guy rather than discussion on an "open" forum. In another attempt to present differing viewpoints I hope this helps.

It is a MASSIVE insult to imply that this is a shakedown, that may be true for some, but I assure you that it is not for anyone that I know or care about. (my mother is Seminole my father AA) Oral history passed to me and others in my family confirms that. We refer to our team as "DC" or "Washington" or simply "the team" No matter what happens short of a name change, this will continue for all of us.

 

[skinsdad62]

First it is not the connotation that is at issue here....it is by your own admonition the name calling that is at question. I was called something that I found offensive (as would virtually everyone) returned fire and you called me and unfairly not the originator to task. I would not have an issue with your position.....IF....you had warned us both.

Next I have no issue with how the word became so. It is interesting that both of you limited your research to its origin. curiosity alone should have been enough for either or both of you to investigate why it is now offensive to so many of us. That is telling!!!

To be clear, all you have to do is Goggle, reskins scalps for bounties, Scalps for bounties, scalping, Bounties | The U.S.-Dakota War of 1862....OR....ANYTHING of your choosing related to this bloody practice. You'll find that the word took on new meaning.

Now, directly to your question...........This is my hometown team, that is why I am a fan of it. This might be a little too old for you (although we both are retired and former military) But I was raised to believe that any man who could not support and defend his own home ( homeland, hometown) was not much of a man.I have passed this on to my children and now my grandchildren. I have been a fan almost from birth, my first memory goes back to the trade with philly for Sonny Jurgensen. I never dodged your question, it has been obvious from my entry here that your mind was made up and more focused on defending your position and that of the other guy rather than discussion on an "open" forum. In another attempt to present differing viewpoints I hope this helps.

It is a MASSIVE insult to imply that this is a shakedown, that may be true for some, but I assure you that it is not for anyone that I know or care about. (my mother is Seminole my father AA) Oral history passed to me and others in my family confirms that. We refer to our team as "DC" or "Washington" or simply "the team" No matter what happens short of a name change, this will continue for all of us.

My mind is made up because i am sick and tired of a few people dictating to the majority what is and isnt offensive . it IS a shakedown and it has been done before by the same group of people

look if you feel the way you do then so be it and i will feel the way i do

i was born and raised in northern va . i watched the team and i watched the bullets as well

that team succumbed to foolish PC BS and changed their name . their history went with it and hence i dont follow the wizards

i have given evidence about the name , its origin and you rejected it again . you mentioned merchandise money , not me , but you so i dont know where you are coming from about that as a way to pacify me

the research i have shown is this is a few people who have a beef with the name and i dont believe the minority should get to DICTATE to others what is what . the rights and their say should be heard but the day i hear you protest the saints , vikings , raiders bucs , pirates , padres chiefs , braves with as much vigor as you bash the skins name then maybe i will soften my stand

funny i dont hear much of an uproar about that yet according to you since those names offend someone then they should be changed too

 

[Stymietee]

Dad and I have both based our opinion on fact. We have looked at the origin of the word, the use of it by the Indians in speeches, the use of it in schools where 90% of the students are Indians, and why Preston Marshall changed the name in the first place...it was in honor of his Indian friend.

Do you want me to change every word that people find offensive? What am I supposed to do about the word Jesus or Christmas? Am I supposed to stop using those words because atheists claim those words are offensive?

Unfortunately your facts stop at the origin, some words change in meaning and scope over time. This is one of them. See response to Skinsdad. Please do not use G. Preston Marshall's rationale as a reference to the name change. Based on a LIE is still a LIE. William Henry Dietz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Dietz

The legend of Lone Star Dietz: Redskins namesake, coach — and ...

www.washingtonpost.com/...lone-star-dietz.../a135...


The legend of Lone Star Dietz - The Washington Post

www.washingtonpost.com/...lone-star-dietz/.../005...


[PDF] Coach William 'Lone Star' Dietz - National Museum of the American ...

nmai.si.edu/.../WaggonerWEBSpr2013.p...‎ https://www.google.com/search?sourc...US487US488&q=William+Henry+"Lone+Star"+Dietz#

• Cached
• Similar

Maybe a better name might have been based on an honorarium to Mr. Dietz "The Boston Germans"

 

[Stymietee]

My mind is made up because i am sick and tired of a few people dictating to the majority what is and isnt offensive . it IS a shakedown and it has been done before by the same group of people

look if you feel the way you do then so be it and i will feel the way i do

i was born and raised in northern va . i watched the team and i watched the bullets as well

that team succumbed to foolish PC BS and changed their name . their history went with it and hence i dont follow the wizards

i have given evidence about the name , its origin and you rejected it again . you mentioned merchandise money , not me , but you so i dont know where you are coming from about that as a way to pacify me

the research i have shown is this is a few people who have a beef with the name and i dont believe the minority should get to DICTATE to others what is what . the rights and their say should be heard but the day i hear you protest the saints , vikings , raiders bucs , pirates , padres chiefs , braves with as much vigor as you bash the skins name then maybe i will soften my stand

funny i dont hear much of an uproar about that yet according to you since those names offend someone then they should be changed too

Your response (or better lack of same) speaks for itself ......I rest my case!!!

 

[Stymietee]

It sounds like you and Dad have already made up your minds & decided to burry you heads in the sand & are not willing to consider other perspectives ... such as the one below.



Personally ... I do NOT feel very strong one way OR the other any more.

I LOVE this team because it reminds me of some great memories I shared with my mother at RFK as a kid before she left this Earth.

Despite what Dad says ... watching this team play, no matter the name, will still bring me those same feelings.

I totally agree with this.......It seems to me that Washington takes precedence over any nickname.

 

[Stymietee]

We should be able to; however, how many times do I have to post the evidence that it's not offensive?

People obviously can't read...so I tried to speak their language.

I agree conversation is by definition BOTH give and take. That said, when you ONLY give "evidence" that ONLY supports your position, you do not further reasonable conversation. There are other facts and supporting documentation that supports the position that the ORIGINAL meaning of this word has changed over time, both making your "evidence" moot and the word offending to others. What you've actually accomplished is clarity....... in your inability to see beyond your own self serving interests and a willingness to resort to base name calling when your "evidence" is challenged by better evidence.

 

[skinsdad62]

Your response (or better lack of same) speaks for itself ......I rest my case!!!

dodging again

 

[Stymietee]

good debate is fine

i just dont want name calling going on


as for the word thing the N word is meant to disparage blacks regardless of its origin . when that term is used their is no debate on what the purpose is

redskins was not in the beginning nor in 1936 or now i have never heard that word used in a way to slur someone .

now for stymie , he claims redskins fandom yet he only posts in this thread ? and to complain about the name and how he wants the traditions , history and nostalgia thrown away so we can "make more money in new merchandise "

he sidestepped the whole issue

the name changes and everything else goes with it the wizards arent the bullets . they have none of the traditions of the bullets none of the history they have an old jordan and a legacy of failure

the same will happen to the redskins , not fight song , no band , no nothing

it will be a new franchise

i cant see a "fan " advocating that when that is brought up



Since you've felt a need to call me out in this response, let's clear up what I guess is your attempt to negate. I have Only been a member since August, I don't spend a lot of my time on these sites anyway, but when I do it is because there are topics that interest me. ( I have posted to others in my limited time here).

It is your position that a name change negates the history and all that goes with it. NOT MINE!!!! Washington IS a storied franchise, its nickname is less important to me than the City that it represents. If you are unable to understand this I cannot help you. I do, however, support your right to take and believe in what you believe in. Guess you'll become a fan of the Goatropers or some other team if the name is changed. I, on the other hand will continue to support my home team no matter what it's called. Even one that offends me. You tell me who the greater fan is!!!








Nothing wrong with a good debate.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Stymietee]

dodging again

I responded directly to what you've written. Now, about that "dodging" respond to what I have written before if you're able.

 

[gkekoa]

To be clear, all you have to do is Goggle, reskins scalps for bounties, Scalps for bounties, scalping, Bounties | The U.S.-Dakota War of 1862....OR....ANYTHING of your choosing related to this bloody practice. You'll find that the word took on new meaning.



When did we limit the term to it's origin? We have stated it's origin. We have also stated that a HS where 90% of the students are Indians is named Redskins. We have shown where Indians used the term Redskin in their speeches. We have shown where Marshall named the team to honor his friend. We have shown polls where 90% of Indians have stated the word is not offensive...from 2005.

You mention how the name changed...it was a name given for a reward. How many words in the English language have multiple meanings? The claim is the word is offensive because it compares Indians to animals. Are we sure it's not just a descriptor? Who said it was because of the bloody scalp? I would say it's more of a description of what you caught. If a person refers to themselves as a Redskin and you bring back his scalp...wouldn't you say you brought back a "redskin."

 

[skinsdad62]

Since you've felt a need to call me out in this response, let's clear up what I guess is your attempt to negate. I have Only been a member since August, I don't spend a lot of my time on these sites anyway, but when I do it is because there are topics that interest me. ( I have posted to others in my limited time here).

It is your position that a name change negates the history and all that goes with it. NOT MINE!!!! Washington IS a storied franchise, its nickname is less important to me than the City that it represents. If you are unable to understand this I cannot help you. I do, however, support your right to take and believe in what you believe in. Guess you'll become a fan of the Goatropers or some other team if the name is changed. I, on the other hand will continue to support my home team no matter what it's called. Even one that offends me. You tell me who the greater fan is!!!

i have shown numerous instances where changing the name changes the history .

the point you have missed is the argument against the redskins name is that its racist, it depicts native americans in a bad light and because a minority of people from the native american community are offended by it then it should be changed

I bring up the other names because it seems that the "moral " outrage is selective . In my opinion the vikings name and mascot make all white people into rapers and pillagers and its offensive to me I am in the vast minority on this however does that give me the right to force the vikings to change their team name ? Most whites would laugh at this as most native americans scoff at the name change controversy

same with the other team names ? so when does this all end in the PC world

i believe the history and the team nostaglia ends when the name is changed . You dont have to believe that but i do and my belief is as valid as yours

 

[Stymietee]

To be clear, all you have to do is Goggle, reskins scalps for bounties, Scalps for bounties, scalping, Bounties | The U.S.-Dakota War of 1862....OR....ANYTHING of your choosing related to this bloody practice. You'll find that the word took on new meaning.



When did we limit the term to it's origin? We have stated it's origin. We have also stated that a HS where 90% of the students are Indians is named Redskins. We have shown where Indians used the term Redskin in their speeches. We have shown where Marshall named the team to honor his friend. We have shown polls where 90% of Indians have stated the word is not offensive...from 2005.

You mention how the name changed...it was a name given for a reward. How many words in the English language have multiple meanings? The claim is the word is offensive because it compares Indians to animals. Are we sure it's not just a descriptor? Who said it was because of the bloody scalp? I would say it's more of a description of what you caught. If a person refers to themselves as a Redskin and you bring back his scalp...wouldn't you say you brought back a "redskin."

WOW!!!

 

[Stymietee]

Since you've felt a need to call me out in this response, let's clear up what I guess is your attempt to negate. I have Only been a member since August, I don't spend a lot of my time on these sites anyway, but when I do it is because there are topics that interest me. ( I have posted to others in my limited time here).

It is your position that a name change negates the history and all that goes with it. NOT MINE!!!! Washington IS a storied franchise, its nickname is less important to me than the City that it represents. If you are unable to understand this I cannot help you. I do, however, support your right to take and believe in what you believe in. Guess you'll become a fan of the Goatropers or some other team if the name is changed. I, on the other hand will continue to support my home team no matter what it's called. Even one that offends me. You tell me who the greater fan is!!!

i have shown numerous instances where changing the name changes the history .

the point you have missed is the argument against the redskins name is that its racist, it depicts native americans in a bad light and because a minority of people from the native american community are offended by it then it should be changed

I bring up the other names because it seems that the "moral " outrage is selective . In my opinion the vikings name and mascot make all white people into rapers and pillagers and its offensive to me I am in the vast minority on this however does that give me the right to force the vikings to change their team name ? Most whites would laugh at this as most native americans scoff at the name change controversy

same with the other team names ? so when does this all end in the PC world

i believe the history and the team nostaglia ends when the name is changed . You dont have to believe that but i do and my belief is as valid as yours

You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, all I ask is the same (restated)

 

[gkekoa]

WOW!!!

Great response.

 

[skinsdad62]

You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, all I ask is the same (restated)

you did get the same . i didnt call anyone an idiot or ignorant for that matter

 

[skinsdad62]

Code Talker says Redskins name not derogatory

i am glad the code talkers dont take offense to the name

i do think it was a stupid move to do it at this time because some could take it as political statement and a stunt

just not very wise

 

[gkekoa]

Code Talker says Redskins name not derogatory

i am glad the code talkers dont take offense to the name

i do think it was a stupid move to do it at this time because some could take it as political statement and a stunt

just not very wise

Maybe it was just another way to honor heroes of this country. Not everything is political and even if they are...if it's done in this way...why is it wrong?

Again, it's really not the Indians that take offense to the team's name...it's white liberals who try to pretend like they are better than the rest of us and control us.

 

[skinsdad62]

Maybe it was just another way to honor heroes of this country. Not everything is political and even if they are...if it's done in this way...why is it wrong?

Again, it's really not the Indians that take offense to the team's name...it's white liberals who try to pretend like they are better than the rest of us and control us.

it can be twisted that way , all i am saying , i dont know snyder's heart