Why Oregon fans will never get it

[yeodonie]

Apparently nobody gets it but this one Wolverine honk

 

[Olyduck]

So I play Oregon State tonight in my NCAA 14 online franchise w Michigan. We're both unbeaten.

In a bowl?

 

[LawDawg]

Kids pick schools for a combination of reasons. Considering most major programs have pretty good facilities, the extra "wow" factor of a few is pretty minor. Kids are not picking Oregon over Ohio State because they might have a few extra nick-nacks here and there. That's what you still don't seem to understand.

Let's just assume Oregon's facilities are the best in the country, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best, Oregon scores a perfect 10. If a kid visits Ohio State or Alabama, they're facilities probably score somewhere in the 9s. So no, I don't think a kid is going to choose a school because they have just a few more perks inside of their facilities.

Most of the time kids pick schools because they think they can win there. Academics is huge for a lot of recruits. Coaching staff, how comfortable they feel with the other players, history of putting kids into the NFL. All of that plays a much more significant roll than the facilities because when they visit four other major programs and Oregon, it's likely all schools are going to have top notch facilities.

Can't believe I took the time to do this:

Because when a thread goes this long, we sometimes forget what we were originally talking about.

When Schembechler arrived at Michigan, the facilities were terrible. The team was getting dressed in the bleachers at the basketball facility. You know what Bo said, "You see that rusty nail right there? Fielding Yost hung his hat on that rusty nail! We've got tradition here! Michigan tradition! And that's something no one else has!"

Oregon will never be able to buy national titles or the history that makes a great program.

I assume the OP was in response to the posting of the new facilities at Oregon.

OP, to me, says that tradition trumps everything else. Terrible facilities don't matter. Oregon can spend all they want on facilities and uniforms and all the flash, but it's tradition that matters and they can't buy a quality football program.

From there, OP has evolved to admitting above that recruits look at all sorts of things. Basically, he goes from tradition is all that counts, and facilities don't matter, to admitting the obvious ... different players choose schools for different reasons. Basically, he admits that his OP was wrong - if all sorts of things attract recruits, not just tradition, there is no reason to think that Oregon can't "buy" national titles. I'll give him credit for evolving, but he doesn't even realize that he has basically admitted his OP was wrong and he keeps arguing for the sake of arguing.

Before getting to the quickly done reasearch, let's just look at Occam's Razor. If faciltiies didn't make a difference in college recruiting, then schools wouldn't be spending millions of dollars building them. A different way of looking at it, because schools are spending millions upon millions in facilities, the only logical conclusion is that they make a huge difference.

That should end the discussion, but it won't. So, google is our fiend:

Here is a Forbes article on the subject:

The Surprising Factors Driving College Football Recruits' College Decision - Forbes

A recent survey conducted by Galain of 179 college football players sought to identify the factors most important to college football recruits in making their college decision. Of the fifteen choices participants had to select from, the participants ranked a school’s academic reputation as the most important factor to their decision. The least important factor was their friends’ opinions about a school or program. Most interesting about the study’s findings, however, is the important role that a campus’ facilities play to a recruit’s decision. A recruit’s opinion of a team’s playing facilities ranked as the fourth most important factor, while campus living facilities and team facilities ranked sixth and eighth, respectively.

This article (Rivals.com Football Recruiting - Improving facilities builds recruiting, too), discussing the survey shows that the top 4 are:

1. Academic reputation
2. Parents/guardian perception about the school
3. Relationships with assistant coaches.
4. The quality of facilities (which was just fractions of a point behind the first 3)

I was not able to find the survey to find out where tradition lands, but it isn't even in the top 4.

More from the article:

Nashville (Tenn.) Independence safety Rashaan Gaulden is being recruited by Mississippi State. He also has been offered by SEC schools Kentucky, Ole Miss, South Carolina, Tennessee and Vanderbilt, as well as many other BCS programs.

At the Rivals Camp Series presented by Under Armour, he said his interests fall in line with the findings of the Galain study because his primary concern is his history major but just below that is the condition of the athletic center in which he will play.

"Facilities have to be the best of the best," Gaulden said.

Rivals.com national recruiting analyst Mike Farrell said the arms race has leveled off because most every school has done some sort of improvement. However, upgrades are important.

"Having the coolest player lounge or the best weight room that a player sees on his visit will play a role because it makes the players feel like they are really important," Farrell said. "Oftentimes it is window dressing and overrated, but the bottom line is that if you don't have great facilities it is obvious."

You also have:

Rivals.com Football Recruiting - Uniforms make difference in recruiting

Flashy uniforms and immaculate facilities have become so important in the dogged world of recruiting that Arizona State coach Dennis Erickson said if it sells to top recruits then his program is going to do what it takes to stay competitive.

"Life has changed, hasn't it?" Erickson said. "Facilities, uniforms, young people make decisions on that, that's just how it is. In saying that, it's different than it used to be but that's how it is and you deal with the times and go on and do whatever you do to get the football players you need to be successful.

I am even go as far as saying this ... perhaps the reason that UM has dropped into a down cycle the past decade that they are struggling to come out of is because they are too tied to tradition. By being stubborn as they have been, perhaps they kept saying, "kids will keep coming here because we are Michigan ... we have tradition ... we have a rusty nail." But, as the Forbes article and other easy to find research shows, the flash - that can be bought - makes a huge difference. Perhaps that is why UM spent over $300 million recently on it's football facilities. That rusty nail simply wasn't cutting it any more.

/thread

 

[RobBase]

In a bowl?

Regular season. Week 4. I subbed out UConn for the Beavers to get a tougher schedule.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Can't believe I took the time to do this:

Because when a thread goes this long, we sometimes forget what we were originally talking about.


I assume the OP was in response to the posting of the new facilities at Oregon.

OP, to me, says that tradition trumps everything else. Terrible facilities don't matter. Oregon can spend all they want on facilities and uniforms and all the flash, but it's tradition that matters and they can't buy a quality football program.

From there, OP has evolved to admitting above that recruits look at all sorts of things. Basically, he goes from tradition is all that counts, and facilities don't matter, to admitting the obvious ... different players choose schools for different reasons. Basically, he admits that his OP was wrong - if all sorts of things attract recruits, not just tradition, there is no reason to think that Oregon can't "buy" national titles. I'll give him credit for evolving, but he doesn't even realize that he has basically admitted his OP was wrong and he keeps arguing for the sake of arguing.

Before getting to the quickly done reasearch, let's just look at Occam's Razor. If faciltiies didn't make a difference in college recruiting, then schools wouldn't be spending millions of dollars building them. A different way of looking at it, because schools are spending millions upon millions in facilities, the only logical conclusion is that they make a huge difference.

That should end the discussion, but it won't. So, google is our fiend:

Here is a Forbes article on the subject:

The Surprising Factors Driving College Football Recruits' College Decision - Forbes



This article (Rivals.com Football Recruiting - Improving facilities builds recruiting, too), discussing the survey shows that the top 4 are:

1. Academic reputation
2. Parents/guardian perception about the school
3. Relationships with assistant coaches.
4. The quality of facilities (which was just fractions of a point behind the first 3)

I was not able to find the survey to find out where tradition lands, but it isn't even in the top 4.

More from the article:



You also have:

Rivals.com Football Recruiting - Uniforms make difference in recruiting



I am even go as far as saying this ... perhaps the reason that UM has dropped into a down cycle the past decade that they are struggling to come out of is because they are too tied to tradition. By being stubborn as they have been, perhaps they kept saying, "kids will keep coming here because we are Michigan ... we have tradition ... we have a rusty nail." But, as the Forbes article and other easy to find research shows, the flash - that can be bought - makes a huge difference. Perhaps that is why UM spent over $300 million recently on it's football facilities. That rusty nail simply wasn't cutting it any more.

/thread

Tradition is historically one of the biggest things that gets recruits to come to your school. Without it, you'll have a hard time even getting a visit from top prospects unless they grew up a fan of your team. Once they're there, there are things that influence them but facilities are far from the top; not because they simply don't matter but because lots of schools have impressive facilities. Your poll from Rivals seems to point out that my case actually has some fact behind it. As I said before, tradition gets the kid to the school in the first place. Kids aren't randomly deciding to take a trip to Oklahoma because they think it might have great night life. A lot of times they're doing it on name along. Specifically schools like ND have maintained their successful recruiting on name and tradition alone.

On the flip side, there are plenty of schools with great facilities and pretty awful recruiting and football teams. I would bet anything that Oregon lands itself in that list sometime in the next 10 years.

 

[RobBase]

I am even go as far as saying this ... perhaps the reason that UM has dropped into a down cycle the past decade that they are struggling to come out of is because they are too tied to tradition. By being stubborn as they have been, perhaps they kept saying, "kids will keep coming here because we are Michigan ... we have tradition ... we have a rusty nail."

Great post, but the reason MI is rebuilding is because we went away from tradition and hired Rich Rod. He never embraced the tradition, scrapped the pro style offense, and gave a damn cartoon character at QB for four years. Only now is Hoke restoring the tradition RR shit all over. In fact, he barely even recruited out of our own state, let alone Ohio.

Remember, last team to beat Urban and Tebow was Lloyd Carr. Even tOSU can't say that. RR came in, scrapped all that, and the rest is history. MI will be back, but we deserve the black eye for hiring that goof in the first place. RR was our John L Smith.

 

[Olyduck]

Tradition is historically one of the biggest things that gets recruits to come to your school. Without it, you'll have a hard time even getting a visit from top prospects unless they grew up a fan of your team. Once they're there, there are things that influence them but facilities are far from the top; not because they simply don't matter but because lots of schools have impressive facilities. Your poll from Rivals seems to point out that my case actually has some fact behind it. As I said before, tradition gets the kid to the school in the first place. Kids aren't randomly deciding to take a trip to Oklahoma because they think it might have great night life. A lot of times they're doing it on name along. Specifically schools like ND have maintained their successful recruiting on name and tradition alone.

On the flip side, there are plenty of schools with great facilities and pretty awful recruiting and football teams. I would bet anything that Oregon lands itself in that list sometime in the next 10 years.

Kids now look at the recenct more than the past. does tradition help? yes in some cases. but kids also want to play for the team that is winning recently. more and more kids now dont know the big names of the past. Bo and Woody and Bear are being replaced by Saban, Miles and Meyer.

Oregon has great facilities and good recruiting and a good team. and Oregon has built up to where the name means something. Oregon has tradition its just a shorter story than that of Michigan Alabama and USC. doesnt mean that it means nothing to some recruits.

 

[Olyduck]

Great post, but the reason MI is rebuilding is because we went away from tradition and hired Rich Rod. He never embraced the tradition, scrapped the pro style offense, and gave a damn cartoon character at QB for four years. Only now is Hoke restoring the tradition RR shit all over. In fact, he barely even recruited out of our own state, let alone Ohio.

Remember, last team to beat Urban and Tebow was Lloyd Carr. Even tOSU can't say that. RR came in, scrapped all that, and the rest is history. MI will be back, but we deserve the black eye for hiring that goof in the first place. RR was our John L Smith.

but at the same time RR was never given a fair chance to succeed at UM. a system change like that takes time and who is to say that given more than 3 years he couldnt have won. he did better in each season. with his recruits Hoke took UM to the Sugar.

 

[LawDawg]

Tradition is historically one of the biggest things that gets recruits to come to your school. Without it, you'll have a hard time even getting a visit from top prospects unless they grew up a fan of your team. Once they're there, there are things that influence them but facilities are far from the top; not because they simply don't matter but because lots of schools have impressive facilities. Your poll from Rivals seems to point out that my case actually has some fact behind it. As I said before, tradition gets the kid to the school in the first place. Kids aren't randomly deciding to take a trip to Oklahoma because they think it might have great night life. A lot of times they're doing it on name along. Specifically schools like ND have maintained their successful recruiting on name and tradition alone.

On the flip side, there are plenty of schools with great facilities and pretty awful recruiting and football teams. I would bet anything that Oregon lands itself in that list sometime in the next 10 years.

About what I expected from you. In the face of overwhelming evidence contrary to your position, you choose to stick your head far up your ass. Not worth any more time.

 

[trojanfan12]

Tradition is historically one of the biggest things that gets recruits to come to your school. Without it, you'll have a hard time even getting a visit from top prospects unless they grew up a fan of your team. Once they're there, there are things that influence them but facilities are far from the top; not because they simply don't matter but because lots of schools have impressive facilities. Your poll from Rivals seems to point out that my case actually has some fact behind it. As I said before, tradition gets the kid to the school in the first place. Kids aren't randomly deciding to take a trip to Oklahoma because they think it might have great night life. A lot of times they're doing it on name along. Specifically schools like ND have maintained their successful recruiting on name and tradition alone.

On the flip side, there are plenty of schools with great facilities and pretty awful recruiting and football teams. I would bet anything that Oregon lands itself in that list sometime in the next 10 years.

I don't think that anyone (even Oregon fans) are trying to say that tradition doesn't matter, it does!! It just doesn't matter as much anymore as you are trying to claim it does!!

As I stated earlier, if you have a kid that has always wanted to be a Trojan, Wolverine, 'Bammer, etc. Oregon isn't getting that kid no matter how incredible their facilities in comparison to the other school.

Also, everything else being equal, the schools with more tradition will likely win out over Oregon. After all, Oregon can't show a kid a bunch of NC trophies and/or Heismans and say "If you come here, you can get one of those"!! The thing is, Oregon knows this, so they have tried to create something else to attract top recruits.

As the research that LawDawg shared shows, that can and does make a difference to many recruits. It is THOSE recruits that Oregon CAN get over the more traditional powers that can ultimately make the difference for them.

 

[RobBase]

but at the same time RR was never given a fair chance to succeed at UM. a system change like that takes time and who is to say that given more than 3 years he couldnt have won. he did better in each season. with his recruits Hoke took UM to the Sugar.

RR cheated man. On top of that, he lost to everyone. He lost to teams we hadn't lost to in decades. The guy is literally a black hole in the MI history books. Maybe it gets spun differently on the West Coast because he's in AZ now, I wouldn't know. I cannot tell you how much I hated him, hated Denard Robinson etc...the whole thing was an insult to MI history and tradition. Only thing I can compare it to was Matt Millen as GM for the Lions. Total disaster that played out longer than it should have.

Michigan prez concedes an ?oops!? on RichRod hire | CollegeFootballTalk

 

[Codaxx]

This thread has turned into a predictable homer and conf homer circular argument.

My own finalized thoughts.

The best college programs now and going forward, it's about 1) facilities & 2) tradition and history for your fans to embrace and be prideful of 3) Ws via coaching and SA talent. 4) Professionally managed athletic dept. All matter. It's how you got to get it done.

You got to have all if you want to have sustained success at the collegiate level. Facilities do matter to recruiting. They matter big time these days because you got to have all your bases covered to get it done. Ignore what the other members of your conf and nationally are building at your own peril.

And yes, Oregon is an extreme example of an attempt to buy a championship, but they are dealing with an extremely different dynamic as a school than say a Michigan, OU, or Alabama. As a Husky we laugh at a lot of the overkill gimmicky stuff they do and glad we don't blindly embrace that, but we know you still need the facilities and a modern approach running your programs or your going to get your pants pulled down a lot.

Gawd. Bring on football season.

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I can say that I do not always agree with what is done in Eugene, but you have to admit it is intelligent. Oregon is at a massive disadvantage. They have 0 tradition. They have a terrible recruiting base. Someone mentioned Bama and its lack of in-state players, but look at a 300-400 mile radius and you will see that is where much of their talent is concentrated. Oregon is gimmicky, because that is their in. They are playing the cutting edge, anti-establishment card. It works on a lot of kids. It is a strategy that Baylor is now trying to employ and having some success

 

[Olyduck]

I don't think that anyone (even Oregon fans) are trying to say that tradition doesn't matter, it does!! It just doesn't matter as much anymore as you are trying to claim it does!!

As I stated earlier, if you have a kid that has always wanted to be a Trojan, Wolverine, 'Bammer, etc. Oregon isn't getting that kid no matter how incredible their facilities in comparison to the other school.

Also, everything else being equal, the schools with more tradition will likely win out over Oregon. After all, Oregon can't show a kid a bunch of NC trophies and/or Heismans and say "If you come here, you can get one of those"!! The thing is, Oregon knows this, so they have tried to create something else to attract top recruits.

As the research that LawDawg shared shows, that can and does make a difference to many recruits. It is THOSE recruits that Oregon CAN get over the more traditional powers that can ultimately make the difference for them.

How much do you think they use " you could be Oregon's first Heisman winner" " you can help Oregon win our first NC"
You think those things woulndt appeal to kids too?

 

[Codaxx]

RR cheated man. On top of that, he lost to everyone. He lost to teams we hadn't lost to in decades. The guy is literally a black hole in the MI history books. Maybe it gets spun differently on the West Coast because he's in AZ now, I wouldn't know. I cannot tell you how much I hated him, hated Denard Robinson etc...the whole thing was an insult to MI history and tradition. Only thing I can compare it to was Matt Millen as GM for the Lions. Total disaster that played out longer than it should have.

Michigan prez concedes an ?oops!? on RichRod hire | CollegeFootballTalk

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I do not think he is nearly as bad of a coach as Michigan fans make him out to be. I thought it was a cultural abortion when he was hired. He was the wrong coach at the wrong school.

 

[BoiseMike19]

I kind of like the rankings. #1 recruiting classes have sure worked for us! And it has to be since according to Oregon fans, who have the only good facility in the country, it can't be our facilities!

You're right to be sure to a large degree. While I do think the facilities do play a role, it is the cash, perks to the parents and universally false promises that have contributed most in your teams recruiting success.

 

[Olyduck]

-
I can say that I do not always agree with what is done in Eugene, but you have to admit it is intelligent. Oregon is at a massive disadvantage. They have 0 tradition. They have a terrible recruiting base. Someone mentioned Bama and its lack of in-state players, but look at a 300-400 mile radius and you will see that is where much of their talent is concentrated. Oregon is gimmicky, because that is their in. They are playing the cutting edge, anti-establishment card. It works on a lot of kids.

Again it isnt that Oregon has 0 tradition its just not as long a story as others. the recruiting base isnt terrible but that is why Oregon has done well outside of the state. they have pipelined well into Washingon California and texas.

A gimmick is something that makes something stand out or seem differnt from others but is seen as having little use. Oregon gimmicky offense people talk about is of huge use and is being mirrored all over.

 

[Codaxx]

Again it isnt that Oregon has 0 tradition its just not as long a story as others. the recruiting base isnt terrible but that is why Oregon has done well outside of the state. they have pipelined well into Washingon California and texas.

A gimmick is something that makes something stand out or seem differnt from others but is seen as having little use. Oregon gimmicky offense people talk about is of huge use and is being mirrored all over.

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The gimmick was the uniforms, not the offense. I find the base offense to be nothing special. The innovation was in Kelly's process. Practicing at light speed. X adn Os portion is basically recycled offense based on zone blocking. Recruiting base lacks. It is hard consistently pull kids out of Cali and TExas. Much easier if you have the ability to fill the majority of your roster with kids that are within driving distance. That is not a luxury Oregon has at the moment.

 

[4down20]

RR cheated man. On top of that, he lost to everyone. He lost to teams we hadn't lost to in decades. The guy is literally a black hole in the MI history books. Maybe it gets spun differently on the West Coast because he's in AZ now, I wouldn't know. I cannot tell you how much I hated him, hated Denard Robinson etc...the whole thing was an insult to MI history and tradition. Only thing I can compare it to was Matt Millen as GM for the Lions. Total disaster that played out longer than it should have.

Michigan prez concedes an ?oops!? on RichRod hire | CollegeFootballTalk

On behalf of the entire Alabama fan base, we would like to thank Michigan for jumping on that hand grenade.

 

[BoiseMike19]

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The gimmick was the uniforms, not the offense. I find the base offense to be nothing special. The innovation was in Kelly's process. Practicing at light speed. X adn Os portion is basically recycled offense based on zone blocking. Recruiting base lacks. It is hard consistently pull kids out of Cali and TExas. Much easier if you have the ability to fill the majority of your roster with kids that are within driving distance. That is not a luxury Oregon has at the moment.

Not a luxury most schools have north of I 10. We don't have 2 football seasons and DO have this goofy annual event called WINTER.

 

[Codaxx]

Not a luxury most schools have north of I 10. We don't have 2 football seasons and DO have this goofy annual event called WINTER.

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Probably more of a population/culture thing than a weather thing. Winter does not bother Ohio. Population is moving west. Pacific Northwest is actually growing, so you may see the trends change.