Lebron vs Jordan?? What about Kobe???

[ckhokie]

They wouldn't of won 3 without Shaq, he was the leader and dominant force of that team. Something MJ and LBJ haven't experienced, have always veen leaders of their teams, even with Wade already in Miami LBJ comes in abd is a leader---not many can do that.

Not entirely true...

MJ was one of 3 Hall of Famers on his team when the Bulls were in their hayday.
Kobe did have Shaq to win his titles, among other very impressive role players

 

[Shanemansj13]

You people also need to realize that these guys played in completely different eras. If Jordan played now he'd have 2x the stats as he did while he played. When Jordan played, you got hacked, beat up, hand checked, pushed, no fouls called.

You even LOOK at Kobe/Lebron and a foul is called. These guys play in a joke era, the joke that is the NBA.

It's honestly quite sad people put these names in the same sentence as Jordan.

You are one-sided. We could take this the other way, how do you know LBJ and Kobe couldn't do this back then too. You said you can't compare the two eras, but you are saying MJ would have better stats when you don't know. Players adjusted to how the league changed, it isn't their fault---don't put that on the players.

I do agree that the NBA, and would say most sports have turned into pussy ball.

 

[shitsho]

Not entirely true...

MJ was one of 3 Hall of Famers on his team when the Bulls were in their hayday.
Kobe did have Shaq to win his titles, among other very impressive role players

I think he means MJ was the undisputed leader of the team. Kobe was definitely not the leader when Shaq was there and Lebron did have that one year where it was not clear.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Not entirely true...

MJ was one of 3 Hall of Famers on his team when the Bulls were in their hayday.
Kobe did have Shaq to win his titles, among other very impressive role players

But MJ was always the leader of the team, Pippen was second but not close to the leader MJ was.

LBJ had nothing in CLeveland, then went to MIami and took over the team in one year being the leader.

Then you got Kobe where for the first 3 titles I would say Shaq was the leader and that is when Kobe came along and made a great name for himself and took over when Shaq left. Yeah they had role players, every team needs role players to win it all, but doesn't mean they are leaders.

 

[ckhokie]

I think he means MJ was the undisputed leader of the team. Kobe was definitely not the leader when Shaq was there and Lebron did have that one year where it was not clear.

Totally agree Jordan was always the leader of his team.

But MJ was always the leader of the team, Pippen was second but not close to the leader MJ was.

LBJ had nothing in CLeveland, then went to MIami and took over the team in one year being the leader. So one yr of notreally knowing is still almost nothing.

Then you got Kobe where for the first 3 titles I would say Shaq was the leader and that is when Kobe came along and made a great name for himself and took over when Shaq left. Yeah they had role players, every team needs role players to win it all, but doesn't mean they are leaders.

Let's not forget how dysfunctional the Kobe/Shaq relationship was at the end. Shaq didn't leave, the Laker front office forced him out because Kobe kept crying. Then Kobe didn't make the playoffs, Shaq won another ring, and decided to ask Kobe about how his ass tasted.

 

[Black Adam]

Totally agree Jordan was always the leader of his team.



Let's not forget how dysfunctional the Kobe/Shaq relationship was at the end. Shaq didn't leave, the Laker front office forced him out because Kobe kept crying. Then Kobe didn't make the playoffs, Shaq won another ring, and decided to ask Kobe about how his ass tasted.

er, Shaq left because he wanted a max contract. Shaq left because of MONEY. LOL haters ALWAYS try to blame Kobe...





CL67

 

[heatmyshorts]

Let us put this debate into the proper persepctive.

Compared to Kobe and Jordan, Lebron wins every statistical category except free throw percentage. LeBron is averaging more points per game, assists per game, field-goal percentage, rebounds per game, three-point percentage, blocks per game and steals per game in his career so far. But did that translate to winning championships? As Lebron found out, it takes more than just individual skills. You have to have a good supporting cast and coach. Kobe in his prime, taking the Lakers to the Western Conference Finals against the then powerful Suns is almost as comparable to Lebron's Finals stint with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Which brings us to Kobe. Kobe started out as a Laker early in his career. Compared to the Cleveland Cavaliers, the Lakers are a far superior and storied franchise. They also had Phil Jackson coach a young Kobe Bryant. One argue that Kobe was more than enough support Shaq required to win his championships. They nicknamed the duo as the one-two punch. No only Kobe lovers will debate that Kobe was number one or even equal to Shaquille's importance in those championships. Kobe haters will use statistics to objectify that this isn't the case. But two make the distinction clearer, when Shaq left the Lakers, the Lakers went from a 56-win Finals team to a 34-win team. If we follow the Jordan rule that it is all about winning,then Kobe haters can point out that Jordan would have not picked this Kobe over Shaquille then or Lebron now.In a similar situation, the Cleveland Cavaliers went froma 61-win team to a 21-win team after Lebron left. What the Cleveland Cavaliers didn't understand is that one player cannot win a championship. Mo Williams is not exactly the number two punch Lebron needed (to his credit, they came close). Mike Brown, love him or hate him, is not Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich.

Lebron haters will continue to point out that Lebron could not win it without Wade or Bosh. In the general, the contributions Wade and Bosh provided for Lebron was just as much as Kobe and Fisher did when Shaquille won his championships. Gasol's (and to a lesser extent) Bynum provided more than enough support in scoring, rebounding and defense that enabled Kobe to secure his 2 championships. Phil Jackson also coached these Lakers. Kobe haters will rejoice in the notion that Shaq and Kobe definitely had superior help and coaching.


Which brings us back to Lebron. Statistics will point that Lebron continues to be the superior individual player with the Heat. He leads the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. We all have to understand that Lebron brought to the Heat what he nearly brought to Cleveland... a(nother) championship. There are people who are upset that Lebron did not bring one to Cleveland. These are the people who argue that Lebron did not have the heart nor the perseverance to do so. But one can also point out that the Cleveland Cavaliers did not bring championship coaching and support. We have to applaud Pat Riley for bringing that culture in. Though he did not provide the same degree of contributions as Phil Jackson did, he certainly understands what it takes to build a championship team.

Lebron certainly has a chance to mirror if not surpass Jordan's legacy as the greatest of all time. Kobe's chance is fading. If he does come back, he might do something greatest of all time-worthy given his age and devastating injury. But to compare all three with regards to who has the better supporting cast is foolish. If you want to bring the debate with more objectivity, then ask who the better individual player is since statistics would back Lebron up and championship pedigree/culture will certainly back Kobe up. The Kobe has to be careful in bringing up Kobe's championships because you have to include Shaquille in the debate as he was the most dominant player in Kobe's first three championships. Comparing those three to Jordan however is all premature.

 

[Louie26]

Who the hell are you and what have you done with the real heatmyshorts?

 

[shitsho]

Hand it to HMS. I like the new and improved presence.

 

[trojanfan12]

They wouldn't of won 3 without Shaq, he was the leader and dominant force of that team. Something MJ and LBJ haven't experienced, have always veen leaders of their teams, even with Wade already in Miami LBJ comes in abd is a leader---not many can do that.

Actually, not entirely correct. I agree that MJ was the leader of his team in all 6 of his finals appearances and Shaq was the leader for the Lakers in Kobe's first 3 finals appearances.

Lebron was the leader in Cleveland and last year in Miami. However, in the first year in Miami, D-Wade was the leader of that team, not Lebron. It wasn't until training camp prior to last year when D-Wade acknowledged that Lebron is the better player, that Lebron became the leader of the Heat.

 

[rmilia1]

I always get a kick out of these threads. Saying Kobe wouldnt have won titles without Shaq is 100% true. You know what else is true?? MJ wouldnt have won a single title without Pippen. Doesnt mean one was more or less valuable, just that they needed each other. The most dominant player to ever play basketball was Wilt Chamberlain, period. Even the most dominating force in NBA history couldnt win a bunch of titles by himslef and lost REPEATEDLY to the Celtics who had multiple HOFers. MJ was great, Kobe is great, Lebron is great too. Hell Id argue that neither MJ or Kobe has as impressive a result as Lebron when he led to the Cavs to the NBA Finals with a team where the second best player was motherfucking Larry Hughes. MJ never went to the Finals without another great player, neither did Kobe.

 

[FatDaddy6003]

wow...i didnt realize it went this deep....

 

[shitsho]

I always get a kick out of these threads. Saying Kobe wouldnt have won titles without Shaq is 100% true. You know what else is true?? MJ wouldnt have won a single title without Pippen. Doesnt mean one was more or less valuable, just that they needed each other.

There is a large difference. Kobe was expendable. There were other players in the league that could have taken Kobes position and performed just as well or better. For MJ's Bulls there were no players at Pippens position that could bring what he brought.

 

[trojanfan12]

I always get a kick out of these threads. Saying Kobe wouldnt have won titles without Shaq is 100% true. You know what else is true?? MJ wouldnt have won a single title without Pippen. Doesnt mean one was more or less valuable, just that they needed each other.

There is a large difference. Kobe was expendable. There were other players in the league that could have taken Kobes position and performed just as well or better. For MJ's Bulls there were no players at Pippens position that could bring what he brought.

Seriously?!? No one else could have brought what Pippen brought? Not Charles Barkley, not Karl Malone, not Clyde Drexler, not Shawn Kemp, no one? Just Scottie Pippen huh?!?

 

[shitsho]

Seriously?!? No one else could have brought what Pippen brought? Not Charles Barkley, not Karl Malone, not Clyde Drexler, not Shawn Kemp, no one? Just Scottie Pippen huh?!?

Yep. Out of those players who brought what Pippen did?

 

[rmilia1]

I always get a kick out of these threads. Saying Kobe wouldnt have won titles without Shaq is 100% true. You know what else is true?? MJ wouldnt have won a single title without Pippen. Doesnt mean one was more or less valuable, just that they needed each other.

There is a large difference. Kobe was expendable. There were other players in the league that could have taken Kobes position and performed just as well or better. For MJ's Bulls there were no players at Pippens position that could bring what he brought.

Yikes man. Thats a reach and a hlaf. Kobe NEVER averaged less than 22.5 ppg in any of the Lakers title years and that was only one time. All the other years he scored 25+ and average 6.5 rpg and 5.5 apg in those years. Saying that "many other players" in the league could have done that is questionable in a best case scenario. Pippen on the flip side averaged over 22.5 1 time in the Bulls 6 title runs, the rest of the years were all under Kobes PPG average. Pip did get almost 8 rpg but his assists were about on par with Kobe having 5.8 per game. Shaq was a better cohort than Pippen for sure but to say Kobe was "expendable" just isnt reality based. Neither Kobe or MJ would have a single title if it werent for having great players around them and frankly Kobes last 2 titles came with worse talent around him than MJ ever won with. People romanticize how great MJ was and the dude was awesome BUT he never won shit by himself. Couldnt even make the Finals until he got another top 50 all time guy. At least you know for fact that Lebron can take a team to the finals by himslef.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yep. Out of those players who brought what Pippen did?

Uh, pretty much all of them!!

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

If you put Lebron on the 2000-2003 Lakers they would win all 3 years.

If you put Tracy McGrady on the 2000-2003 Lakers they probably win at least 2 titles if not 3 titles.

But.....

If you put Kobe on the 2007 Cavaliers, there is no way they get the Finals.

 

[shitsho]

Yikes man. Thats a reach and a hlaf. Kobe NEVER averaged less than 22.5 ppg in any of the Lakers title years and that was only one time. All the other years he scored 25+ and average 6.5 rpg and 5.5 apg in those years. Saying that "many other players" in the league could have done that is questionable in a best case scenario. Pippen on the flip side averaged over 22.5 1 time in the Bulls 6 title runs, the rest of the years were all under Kobes PPG average. Pip did get almost 8 rpg but his assists were about on par with Kobe having 5.8 per game. Shaq was a better cohort than Pippen for sure but to say Kobe was "expendable" just isnt reality based. Neither Kobe or MJ would have a single title if it werent for having great players around them and frankly Kobes last 2 titles came with worse talent around him than MJ ever won with. People romanticize how great MJ was and the dude was awesome BUT he never won shit by himself. Couldnt even make the Finals until he got another top 50 all time guy. At least you know for fact that Lebron can take a team to the finals by himslef.

Your just talking about scoring. Put Ray Allen or Tracy McCrady on that Lakers team and you get the same result. Take Shaq off and who replaces him? Pippen ran the defense and the PG position for the team while combining with MJ to make it extremely difficult to just set up an offense.

 

[shitsho]

Uh, pretty much all of them!!

Drexler couldn't dribble with his left and was a weaker defensive player than Pip. Forget having him set up the offense or leading the defense.

Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp both needed the ball to be given to them or your looking at a turnover. Besides they didnt play SF/PG

Charles is the only one that gives me pause. While he didnt bring what Pippen did on defense and the abiltity to set up the offense he may be the only player that would have been able to step in secure a ring. I dont think this would have resulted in 6 though.