POLL Top 10 poll: #26 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)
16) Randy Johnson (defeated Tris Speaker 16-11)
17) Tris Speaker (defeated Greg Maddux 18-12)
18) Greg Maddux (defeated Albert Pujols 17-9)
19) Joe DiMaggio (defeated Albert Pujols 17-13)
20) Albert Pujols (defeated Pedro Martinez 16-14)
21) Pedro Martinez (defeated Jimmie Foxx 20-10)
22) Jimmie Foxx (defeated Cy Young, Lefty Grove and Christy Mathewson 16-12-2-1)
23) Cy Young (defeated Lefty Grove 17-13)
24) Lefty Grove (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 21-9)
25) Ken Griffey Jr (defeated Alex Rodriguez 14-12)

Who is the #26 player ever? This poll will close Monday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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[dudley laywicker]

go back and watch ken burns pbs series on baseball if you can.throughout the whole thing,they call cobb the goat.

 

[calsnowskier]

Christy Mathewson 1900 - 1916

2 top 5 MVP, 2 down ballot MVP (MVP only awarded 4 years during his career)

Bold: ERA 5, K 5, WHIP 4, IP 1, K/BB 9

373-188 W-L
2507/848 K/BB
552/435 GS/CG
4788.2 IP

Sandy Koufax (1955 - 1966)

3 CY, 1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 6 (+1) ASG

Bold: ERA 5, K 4, IP 2, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP

Clayton Kershaw 2008 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG

Bold: ERA 5, IP 1, K 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 2

212-94 W-L
2968/678 K/BB
429/25 GS/CG
2742.2 IP

Tom Seaver 1967 - 1986

3 CY, ROY, 5 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 5 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG

Bold: ERA 3, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 3

311-205 W-L
3640/1390 K/BB
647/231 GS/CG
4783.0 IP

Justin Verlander 2005 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, ROY, 6 top 5 CY, 3 top 10 MVP, 1 down ballot CY, 4 down ballot MVP, 9 ASG

Bold: ERA 2, IP 4, K 5, WHIP 5, K/BB 2

262-147 W-L
3416/952 K/BB
526/26 GS/CG
3415.2 IP

Grover Alexander 1911 - 1930

3 down ballot MVP

Bold: ERA 5, IP 7, K 6, WHIP 5, K/BB 3

373-208 W-L
2198/951 K/BB
600/436 GS/CG
5190.0 IP

 

[calsnowskier]

Frank Robinson (RF) 1956 - 1976

2 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 12 (+2) ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

107.2, 52.9

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, HR 1, RBI 1, OPS 4, TB 1, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 8
120 - 3

Mel Ott 1926 - 1947 (RF)

3 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 MVP, 7 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG

110.9 53.7

Bold: WAR 3, HR 6, R 2, RBI 1, OPS 2

160 - 8
140 - 6
120 - 4

Alex Rodriguez (SS/3B) 1994 - 2016

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, 2 GG, 10 SS

117.6, 64.3

Bold: WAR 6, R 5, RBI 2, HR 5, 2B 1, H 1, OPS 2, TB 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 8

Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current

3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG

86.2, 65.1

Bold: WAR 5, R 4, RBI 1, BB 3, OBP 4, SLG 3, OPS 4, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 3
160 - 7
140 - 0
120 - 0

Shohei Ohtani (DH) 2018 - current

3 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, ROY, 3 ASG

28.7, 28.7

Bold: WAR 1, R 1, 3B 1, HR 2, RBI 1, OPS 2, TB 2

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 0
140 - 3
120 - 1

Yogi Berra (C) 1946 - 1965

3 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 8 additional seasons with MVP votes, 15 (+3) ASG

59.5, 38.2

Bold: NA

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 0
140 - 2
120 - 7

Johnny Bench (C) 1967 - 1983

2 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, ROY, 10 GG

75.1, 47.2

Bold: WAR 1, HR 2, RBI 3, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 1
140 - 4
120 - 5

Eddie Collins (2B) 1906 - 1930 (played in a total of 68 games in the 1906, 1907, 1928, 1929 and 1930 seasons combined)

1 MVP, 5 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP (no other awards around then, nor ASG)

124.3, 64.3

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, SB 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 5
140 - 5
120 - 7

Nap Lajoie (2B) 1896 - 1916

2 seasons with MVP votes toward end of career (MVP not given most of his career)

106.9, 60.1

Bold: WAR 6, R 1, 2B 5, HR 1, RBI 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 4
140 - 5
120 - 4

Joe Morgan (2B) 1963 - 1984 (played in total of 28 games in the 1963, 1964 and 1968 seasons combined)

2 MVPs, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 10 ASG, 5 GG, 1 SS

100.6, 59.3

Bold: WAR 4, R 1, 3B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 1
160 - 1
140 - 3
120 - 5

 

[calsnowskier]

For the hitters, I think you have 4 buckets…

ARod

Robinson/Ott/Trout

Yogi/Bench

Collins/Lajoie/Morgan

If you ignore “noise”, there is only one choice here.

If you are looking bat almost entirely, than you should look at the OFers.

If you are looking catcher (defense/fueld manager, you look Yogi/Bench (maybe Gibson as well)

If you are looking middle infield, you got the 3 2B.

You could put Gibson/Charleston/Paige into another bucket and pick from them, but I am not certain we are qualified to pick amongst them.

 

[calsnowskier]

For the pitchers…

Alexander and Mathewson have the “old-timey” stat-sets, but Seaver is right there with them in IP and he played in a totally different era. What is interesting, though, is that he never once led the league in IP.

Kershaw, Verlander and Koufax, I think, are good comps to each other. I think I like Kershaw in this group, but his IP is a problem for me. Verlander has a lot of “dead” seasons in his career arc (if he played 20 years earlier, there would be a lot of fingers pointing in his direction). Koufax was a good/not great for the bulk of his career, than he EXPLODED for his last few seasons. If he were around 30 or 40 years later, he could have gotten TJ and extended his career, but he didn’t and he couldn’t.

 

[Clayton]

Koufax was a good/not great for the bulk of his career, than he EXPLODED for his last few seasons. If he were around 30 or 40 years later, he could have gotten TJ and extended his career, but he didn’t and he couldn’t.

I think we're starting to get into a projection tier. Players born on the wrong day or maybe to the wrong team. Comparing catchers to players that were able to do more.

Do we pick these guys over the Seavers and Robinsons?

 

[msgkings322]

I think we're starting to get into a projection tier. Players born on the wrong day or maybe to the wrong team. Comparing catchers to players that were able to do more.

Do we pick these guys over the Seavers and Robinsons?

It’s more the tier where dozens of players have a legit argument IMO

 

[calsnowskier]

I think we're starting to get into a projection tier. Players born on the wrong day or maybe to the wrong team. Comparing catchers to players that were able to do more.

Do we pick these guys over the Seavers and Robinsons?

IMHO, we are in a MAJOR traffic jam. There are just too many players with completely different arguments that are next to impossible to compare.

 

[calsnowskier]

I was thinking about stopping at 30, but maybe we stick a pin in this thing now?

 

[DHoey]

Clemente, Bench and Koufax for me.

Clemente, a true 5 tool player.

Bench, my top catcher of all time.

Koufax, my top pitcher left. Greatest peak

 

[Clayton]

It’s more the tier where dozens of players have a legit argument IMO

The legit arguments are very different, though. Comparing great players without the numbers to back them up to really, really good players with really, really good numbers

 

[LHG]

Updated for #24:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)
20) Albert Pujols (2001-2022)
21) Pedro Martinez (1992-2009)
22) Jimmie Foxx (1925-1945)
23) Cy Young (1890-1911)
24) Lefty Grove (1925-1941)

1876-1889
1890-1896 - 1
1897-1904 - 2
1905-1906 - 3
1907-1911 - 5
1912-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1924 - 6
1925-1927 - 8
1928 - 7
1929-1935 - 4
1936-1937 - 5
1938 - 3
1939 - 4
1940 - 3
1941 - 5
1942-1945 - 4
1946-1950 - 3
1951 - 5
1952-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 5
1988-1989 - 6
1990-1991 - 5
1992-2000 - 6
2001-2003 - 7
2004-2007 - 6
2008 - 4
2009 - 3
2010-2022 - 1
2023-2024 - 0

Updated for #25:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)
20) Albert Pujols (2001-2022)
21) Pedro Martinez (1992-2009)
22) Jimmie Foxx (1925-1945)
23) Cy Young (1890-1911)
24) Lefty Grove (1925-1941)
25) Ken Griffey, Jr (1989-2010)

1876-1889
1890-1896 - 1
1897-1904 - 2
1905-1906 - 3
1907-1911 - 5
1912-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1924 - 6
1925-1927 - 8
1928 - 7
1929-1935 - 4
1936-1937 - 5
1938 - 3
1939 - 4
1940 - 3
1941 - 5
1942-1945 - 4
1946-1950 - 3
1951 - 5
1952-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 5
1988 - 6
1989 - 7
1990-1991 - 6
1992-2000 - 7
2001-2003 - 8
2004-2007 - 7
2008 - 5
2009 - 4
2010 - 2
2011-2022 - 1
2023-2024 - 0

 

[LHG]

Clemente, Bench and Koufax for me.

Clemente, a true 5 tool player.

Bench, my top catcher of all time.

Koufax, my top pitcher left. Greatest peak

Koufax has the really good cluster of years that happened at the end of his career but I'd say that his best season is below Kershaw, Matthewson, Alexander, Verlander and Gibson's best seasons. If talking about 3 best seasons, I'd say Kershaw, Matthewson, Alexander, Verlander and Seaver all had more dominant 3 top seasons than him. It is just that Koufax had them back to back to back so the buzz is there.

 

[msgkings322]

IMHO, we are in a MAJOR traffic jam. There are just too many players with completely different arguments that are next to impossible to compare.

Which makes it interesting IMO, it could reasonably go any number of ways and I’m curious to see which

 

[msgkings322]

The legit arguments are very different, though. Comparing great players without the numbers to back them up to really, really good players with really, really good numbers

Who you consider “great” vs “really really good” will differ from others and that’s the interesting part. Seeing the different criteria, your choice is no more or less valid than others

 

[Cedrique]

I was thinking about stopping at 30, but maybe we stick a pin in this thing now?

just go to 36 and then bracket out 64 more in honor of march madness

 

[msgkings322]

I was thinking about stopping at 30, but maybe we stick a pin in this thing now?

It’s entirely up to you but it’s just getting interesting to me. I hope you at least make it to 30, certainly it should end before the season starts and that would just about get it there

 

[Clayton]

Who you consider “great” vs “really really good” will differ from others and that’s the interesting part. Seeing the different criteria, your choice is no more or less valid than others

Yeah, usually when something gets put into a tier its tough to really fully narrow down the order within the tier. I guess I just think this particular tier might be the toughest. At least once ARod goes

 

[msgkings322]

Clemente, Bench and Koufax for me.

Clemente, a true 5 tool player.

Bench, my top catcher of all time.

Koufax, my top pitcher left. Greatest peak

There are other 5 tool players left like ARod and Trout and Ohtani each with their own warts too. But your take is as valid as anyone’s