POLL Top 10 poll: #25 player ever

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:10:08-0500

Let's add a few more pitchers to that comparison (as a reminder, these are ERA+ buckets by season):

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Seasons Ranked
Clayton Kershaw	2	2	0	4	1	1	2	2	0	14
Christy Matthewson	2	0	0	0	3	3	0	3	1	12
Grover Alexander	1	0	0	1	4	1	0	1	8	16
Justin Verlander	1	0	0	2	2	0	1	3	4	13
Bob Gibson	1	0	0	0	1	1	1	4	3	11
Sandy Koufax	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	7
Tom Seaver	0	1	0	1	1	0	4	2	4	13
Warren Spahn	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	1	8	11
Kid Nichols	0	0	0	2	2	1	1	4	2	12

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:16:37-0500

Putting up a quick scoring system based on the ERA+ season buckets (9 points for each 200+ season, 8 points for 190-199, 7 points for 180-189, etc), here is how I'd score these pitchers. Obviously, there would be more to look at but this may help the discussion:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	18	16	0	24	5	4	6	4	0	77
Christy Matthewson	18	0	0	0	15	12	0	6	1	52
Grover Alexander	9	0	0	6	20	4	0	2	8	49
Justin Verlander	9	0	0	12	10	0	3	6	4	44
Tom Seaver	0	8	0	6	5	0	12	4	4	39
Kid Nichols	0	0	0	12	10	4	3	8	2	39
Bob Gibson	9	0	0	0	5	4	3	8	3	32
Sandy Koufax	0	8	7	0	5	4	3	2	1	30
Warren Spahn	0	0	7	6	0	0	0	2	8	23

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:27:22-0500

VikingFan2k2 said:
See @calsnowskier It is all evening out. The pro Griffey team disappeared or was just not that strong to begin with.

Nah. It is just capped at about 7-9 people at the moment. It is more effecting the runoffs than anything else.

But hey, they are voting the way they see fit, so it is the way the process will play out. Griffey is close, imho, but still about 10 spots or so away. Obviously, some here disagree with me, and that is fine.

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:30:04-0500

jarntt said:
write in

Who is Josh Gibson? A look back at the baseball slugging legend taking over MLB records

Josh Gibson became the new leader in multiple MLB statistical categories with ***** Leagues numbers added in. Here's what to know about the slugger.

www.nbcdfw.com

I stopped stumping for Gibson, Charleston and Paige (and Oh, as well, I guess) a few slots back. We simply don’t have enough data for us here to accurately rate them. I think all three probably belong higher on this list than 25, but I can’t defend that in any way.

But thank you for bringing him up. I think they all still deserve mentions, at least.

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:33:53-0500

MilkSpiller22 said:
i will admit, a lot is based on the deadball era bias... i dont like not really fully understanding what type of bat a guy is...

I may have shifted to Lajoie amongst the three of them. Collins’ WAR just doesn’t seem to match his production (but did he bring the same chaos that Henderson did?) and Lajoie APPEARS to have a much better bat than Morgan. And 2B isn’t a premium position, so defensive wizardry shouldn’t factor in THAT much (not that Morgan was a “wizard” at 2B, he was just good/great).

MilkSpiller22 · 2025-03-13T11:34:08-0500

calsnowskier said:
I stopped stumping for Gibson, Charleston and Paige (and Oh, as well, I guess) a few slots back. We simply don’t have enough data for us here to accurately rate them. I think all three probably belong higher on this list than 25, but I can’t defend that in any way.

But thank you for bringing him up. I think they all still deserve mentions, at least.

yea... i just changed the title of the experiment to be the top MLB players... and have been answering that question...

i was stumping charleston inside the top 10... but that was more because we had so many pre 1950s players...

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:35:56-0500

How do you pronounce “Lajoie”, anyway? When I read it, I think “La Joy”, but I think I heard it pronounced “La Jew Way” with a softer “j” sound (like au jou).

MilkSpiller22 · 2025-03-13T11:37:28-0500

calsnowskier said:
I may have shifted to Lajoie amongst the three of them. Collins’ WAR just doesn’t seem to match his production (but did he bring the same chaos that Henderson did?) and Lajoie APPEARS to have a much better bat than Morgan. And 2B isn’t a premium position, so defensive wizardry shouldn’t factor in THAT much (not that Morgan was a “wizard” at 2B, he was just good/great).

no collins did not bring in the same damage of henderson... SB back then was much different.... teams would basically do the hit and run on every play...

Lajoie, seems to be the best bat of the three... but collins and Morgan were more of a top of the lineup guy vs lajoie being more of a middle, so he was more of the POWER guy...

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:38:58-0500

LHG said:
Let's add a few more pitchers to that comparison (as a reminder, these are ERA+ buckets by season):

Name 200+ 190-199 180-189 170-179 160-169 150-159 140-149 130-139 120-129 Seasons Ranked
Clayton Kershaw
2
2
0
4
1
1
2
2
0
14
Christy Matthewson
2
0
0
0
3
3
0
3
1
12
Grover Alexander
1
0
0
1
4
1
0
1
8
16
Justin Verlander
1
0
0
2
2
0
1
3
4
13
Bob Gibson
1
0
0
0
1
1
1
4
3
11
Sandy Koufax
0
1
1
0
1
1
1
1
1
7
Tom Seaver
0
1
0
1
1
0
4
2
4
13
Warren Spahn
0
0
1
1
0
0
0
1
8
11
Kid Nichols
0
0
0
2
2
1
1
4
2
12

Wow. That is jarring. Looks like we may have overlooked someone.

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:43:50-0500

Clayton Kershaw 2008 - present

1 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes, 3 Cy Youngs, 4 top 5 Cy Young, 2 top 10 Cy Young, 10 ASG, 1 GG

Bold: ERA 5, K 3, WHIP 4, IP 1, K/BB 2

212-94 W-L
2968/678 K/BB
429/25 GS/CG
2742.2 IP

Christy Mathewson 1900 - 1916

2 top 5 MVP, 2 more season w MVP votes (MVP only awarded 4 years during his career)

Bold: ERA 5, K 5, WHIP 4, IP 1, K/BB 9

373-188 W-L
2507/848 K/BB
552/435 GS/CG
4788.2 IP

Grover Alexander 1911 - 1930

1 top 5 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (Cy Young award not given during his career)

Bold: ERA 5, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 7, K/BB 2

373-208 W-L
2198/951 K/BB
600/436 GS/CG
5190 IP

Justin Verlander 2005 - present

1 MVP, 7 more season w MVP votes, 3 Cy Youngs, 6 top 5 Cy Young, 1 top 10 Cy Young, 9 ASG, ROY

Bold: ERA 2, K 5, WHIP 5, IP 4, K/BB 1

262-147 W-L
3416/952 K/BB
526/26 GS/CG
3415.2 IP

Tom Seaver 1967 - 1986

9 seasons w MVP votes, 3 Cy Youngs, 5 top 5 Cy Young, 2 top 10 Cy Young, 12 ASG, ROY

Bold: ERA 3, K 5, WHIP 3, IP 0, K/BB 6

311-205 W-L
3640/1390 K/BB
647/231 GS/CG
4783 IP

Kid Nichols 1890 - 1906

(No awards given during his career)

Bold: ERA 0, K 0, WHIP 3, IP 1, K/BB 0

362-208 W-L
1881/1272 K/BB
562/532 GS/CG
5067.1 IP

Bob Gibson 1959 - 1975

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 4 more season w MVP votes; 2 Cy Youngs, 1 top 5 Cy Young, 1 top 10 Cy Young, 8 ASG, 9 GG

Bold: ERA 1, K 1, WHIP 1, IP 0, K/BB 0

251-174 W-L
3117/1336 K/BB
482/255 GS/CG
3884.1 IP

Sandy Koufax 1955 - 1966

1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 3 more season w MVP votes; 3 Cy Youngs, 1 top 5 Cy Young, 6 ASG

Bold: ERA 4, K 4, WHIP 4, IP 2, K/BB 6

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP

Warren Spahn 1942 - 1965

4 top 5 MVP votes, 11 more season w MVP votes; 1 Cy Young, 3 top 5 Cy Young (start being given 12th year of his career), 14 ASG

Bold: ERA 3, K 4, WHIP 4, IP 4, K/BB 0

363-245 W-L
2583/1434 K/BB
665/382 GS/CG
5243.2 IP

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:45:28-0500

calsnowskier said:
How do you pronounce “Lajoie”, anyway? When I read it, I think “La Joy”, but I think I heard it pronounced “La Jew Way” with a softer “j” sound (like au jou).

According to BBRef:
Pronunciation: \Lah-ZHWA or LAJ-way\

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:46:41-0500

Of the 5 who are currently in position to advance (Griffey, Mathewson, Rodriguez, Yogi, Koufax), I think I would go with Yogi. But none of them really excite me much yet. I really am in a position of no strong feels right now…

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:49:38-0500

calsnowskier said:
Of the 5 who are currently in position to advance (Griffey, Mathewson, Rodriguez, Yogi, Koufax), I think I would go with Yogi. But none of them really excite me much yet. I really am in a position of no string feels right now…

Berra isn't even the best catcher (that should be Bench) and I just cannot vote a catcher yet. Too many bats who are way better than either Bench or Berra and while I agree that catchers have intangibles to consider, I haven't heard a good argument that those intangibles help the catcher (either Bench or Berra) leap this high.

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:52:07-0500

I am officially throwing a vote as ‘Shaw.

Horrible team, but he was always a solid bloke and a hell of a pitcher. I think he may be at the top of my list here.

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:53:44-0500

calsnowskier said:
I am officially throwing a vote as ‘Shaw.

Horrible team, but he was always a solid bloke and a hell of a pitcher. I think he may be at the top of my list here.

And, suddenly, a couple of Giants' fans are stumping for a lifetime Dodger.

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:55:15-0500

LHG said:
Berra isn't even the best catcher (that should be Bench) and I just cannot vote a catcher yet. Too many bats who are way better than either Bench or Berra and while I agree that catchers have intangibles to consider, I haven't heard a good argument that those intangibles help the catcher (either Bench or Berra) leap this high.

I doubt any of us know the actual on field game nearly enough to truly make that argument. I just know that catcher is SUPER important, and I don’t really care about his bat. So when a catcher brings a solid bat, AND is reportedly great behind the dish, that is enough for me.

Again, Piazza is, without question, the greatest hitting catcher of all time. But NO ONE ever brings him up in best CATCHER discussions. That tells me a lot.

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T11:55:37-0500

LHG said:
And, suddenly, a couple of Giants' fans are stumping for a lifetime Dodger.

A couple of homers, you and me…

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:57:33-0500

calsnowskier said:
I doubt any of us know the actual on field game nearly enough to truly make that argument. I just know that catcher is SUPER important, and I don’t really care about his bat. So when a catcher brings a solid bat, AND is reportedly great behind the dish, that is enough for me.

Again, Piazza is, without question, the greatest hitting catcher of all time. But NO ONE ever brings him up in best CATCHER discussions. That tells me a lot.

And his WAR is lower than Bench, Carter, Rodriguez and Fisk (and is tied with Berra). That tells me that defense is being considered in WAR.

LHG · 2025-03-13T11:58:56-0500

calsnowskier said:
A couple of homers, you and me…

I had Kershaw below Alexander, Matthewson, Seaver and Nichols. No longer. He is the next pitcher that needs to be ranked (any probably should have been ranked a bit earlier but I'm okay with this spot for him).

calsnowskier · 2025-03-13T12:01:34-0500

LHG said:
I had Kershaw below Alexander, Matthewson, Seaver and Nichols. No longer. He is the next pitcher that needs to be ranked (any probably should have been ranked a bit earlier but I'm okay with this spot for him).

He likely won’t have traction enough for THIS spot, but 26 is a possibility.

POLL Top 10 poll: #25 player ever

Who is the #25 player in baseball history? Vote for 3!!

Oscar Charleston

Ken Griffey Jr

Frank Robinson

Christy Mathewson

Alex Rodriguez

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Yogi Berra

Shohei Ohtani

Roberto Clemente

Nap Lajoie

Carl Yastrzemski

Mel Ott

Mike Trout

Nolan Ryan

Eddie Collins

Joe Morgan

Tom Seaver

Pete Rose

Hank Greenberg

Bob Gibson

Cal Ripken Jr

Mariano Rivera

Grover Alexander

Brooks Robinson

Reggie Jackson

Ralph Kiner

Al Kaline

Harman Killebrew

Arky Vaughan

Steve Carlton

Roy Campanella

Gary Carter

Ivan Rodriguez

Other (name in comments)

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