politics thread

[gkekoa]

Its ok to name an entire religion as terrorists. But point out racist hate groups in this country, and its minimized.

1. Fact: There are only about a total estimated 100,000 militant extremist Muslims in the world. That is less than 0.01% of the global Muslim population of 1.7 billion people. “The vast majority of the estimated 85,000 to 106,000 militants fighting with militant jihadist groups around the world are fighting for purely local reasons, for instance, trying to install Sharia law in northern Nigeria or trying to impose Taliban rule on Pakistan and Afghanistan, while only a small number of these militants are focused on attacking the West.”
Source: P. Bergen, National Security Analyst and E. Schneider, Research Associate: Jihadist threat not as big as you think (Opinion) - CNN.com

Nobody has ever named all Muslims as terrorists. Nobody minimizes racist hate groups, except liberals and some conservative black people, because they prop up Black Panthers and ANTIFA.

100,000 militant extremist Muslims. How many with extremist views? How many actually support numbers are far greater.

 

[Sharkinva]

5- No. It isn’t logical to associate the average white man with the KKK because very very few are. Feel free to do so. I didn’t say I associate you...I said it is logical to associate an unknown black man with what we both see as a negative culture because a majority, not most, are a part and embrace the negative culture.

There is your minimization bro. So I will take your tact, while very few are active KKK members, how many support their ideals??? Got a count for me?

 

[gkekoa]

How was that a liberal think tank? Its a very credible source from what i can tell.

It states short term impacts are small at worst. Long term growth. A good thing.

A wealth gap isnt a big problem if everybody is getting richer which is what long term growth would do.

And business doing better is a good thing. Im sure you believe this.

If you have more people you also have higher labor demand. Supply and demand is a bit too simplistic to accurately describe the labor market (though obviously in a vacuum you can take some concepts from it).

On what basis is bloomberg one of the most biased sources available? Its center to center left and considered very credible. Significantly more credible than the only source put forth by you or skinsdad so far.

Again. FAIR is not a reliable source. Most estimates seem to be around 11 million and im sure do theyre best to handle underreporting. That isnt a rare statistical problem.

Count the kids however you want. But they're positive american citizens so including them only hurts your argument.

Again, what makes your source credible?

Again, you go against the law of supply and demand. They give no evidence that immigration would increase wages and to believe so would go against common sense. They make a claim that can neither be proven nor disproved; however, if we think critically, we can come to a conclusion. More workers, leads to lower wages...simple supply and demand. Workers from other countries would lead to lower wages because those workers would settle for lower pay. Employers making a larger margin means more money in their pockets while immigrants accepting lower wages keeps money away from lower class.

Bloomberg is owned by Michael Bloomberg...he is far left.

Again, the estimates are based on self reporting. Would you self report a crime you commit?

Typically, first generation illegals are not.

 

[gkekoa]

We need immigrants because the fact is the world is changing. You can either change with it, or fight like hell to remain stagnant. And while some think we were great 20 years ago... I tend to disagree.

And if we started to become ungreat 20 years ago, you didnt say WHY you thought we lost our greatness.

That isn’t even an answer. Why do we need immigrants? Give me an intelligent answer.

I would say one reason we lost our greatness is we gave up some Liberty after 911.

 

[Sharkinva]

That isn’t even an answer. Why do we need immigrants? Give me an intelligent answer.

I would say one reason we lost our greatness is we gave up some Liberty after 911.

Correction... its not an answer you like. But it is a very valid answer.

Or maybe I should take this one...

• About the age to come, we see a heavenly picture: “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb” (Revelation 7:9-10).

 

[gkekoa]

Why is your data accurate? I pointed out several large flaws in your source but you have provided nothing to defend it.

As for my sources. Why are they George soros funded? Why is he the boogeyman? What is actually wrong with my sources. I cited a very reputable news source and a very reputable research center. You cited an orgamization founded by a white supremacist (actually). You tell me the difference.

Why dont you buy my net gain data? You can't just wave away information you don't like. If you have a legitimate criticism of the source or data im all ears but simply saying "i don't buy it" is BS. Thats just shutting your ears to info you don't like.

Do you not want america to be humanitarian? Shouldn't we strive to be good people both individually and globally?

But even if you dont care. Lets say you only want america to do well you don't care about the rest of the world. Immigrants make america stronger.

Look at it like this. America is a team. Immigrants are just recruits that make us an even better team. Don't you want that for america?

I don't think it's inherently racist for wanting a wall and i don't think you're racist if you want one. I just think it's wasteful spending to stop the boogeyman. It's a big show for no actual gain.

Also final point in this post. Nobody (or at least im not) is trying to convince we should be freely letting illegal immigrants into the country. My point is that 1. They are not NEARLY as harmful as you think 2. They're likely beneficial and 3. Throwing them out when they haven't comitted crimes other than entering is awful and 4. The anti illegal immigration push is harmful to legal immigration, our citizens, and our country.

You stated the flaw was the founder is a white supremist. First, who is the founder and what makes him a white supremist. If he is a white supremist, does that make the information incorrect?

The net gain data isn’t data. It is people wanting you to conclude their statement is true without data.

I don’t care if we are humanitarian as a nation. Charity should be an individual choice, not forced extortion from government.

How do immigrants make this country stronger? Be specific.

As for a wall, we have walls around homes for protection...same principle. If the wall costs 100 billion, which it doesn’t, but we spend 100 billion annually on illegals, I think you get the point.

 

[gkekoa]

1. His source comes from an organization founded by a white supremacist. The organization is dedicated to being anti immigration. Its front page is blatantly partisan and the methods of the study he linked to were questionable at best.

I linked sources from a highly respected center to center-left news organization and a credible research organization (not sure where youre getting liberal think tank from?).

The difference is clear.

2. The numbers arent really based on self reporting. They use different methods and account for the fact that there may be underreporting. This also isnt an uncommon problem in statistics. You act like we have no way of knowing how many illegal immigrants there are because anybody could be lying and an illegal in hiding but the reality is thats not actually true. We can get pretty solid estimates.

As for would I report something illegal? Depends who and why somebody is asking. But again - this is accounted for.

3. Uhhh the employment rate is extremely low right now. There isnt an epidemic of american workers struggling to find jobs right now. And those immigrants we let in would work jobs (not steal them) and help our economy grow. In fact letting in more immigrants may finally get the stalled wage growth going for native born citizens.

4. Ok but Im not sure what your point is? You complain theres corruption but also complain we're giving them money? Some countries just have problems and we cant fix them for them. *shrug*

5. Soooo not a massive flow. Got it. And as I said. Immigration is not hurting american citizens. Its helping them.

6. Those immigrants DO help American citizens. You say theres a limited amount of tax dollars. Do you know what would increase the amount of tax dollars available? Yup. Immigration.

I totally agree we should work on the US first and foremost. Thats why we should be encouraging immigration! It makes us stronger!

7. They help the economy grow, they're entrepreneurial, they can help wage growth, they provide increased demand for goods, services, and labor, they increase tax revenue, they bring innovation and cultural diversity, their children make highly productive citizens.

8 - see 7

9 - Im not sure what you're arguing here. Why do I care what Canada does?

10 - What do you mean by their job? What does that have to do with immigration?

11 - Yea very clever. You know what is meant by that. It means most illegal immigrants are actually upstanding members of society once they are here. Deporting them and tearing their families apart is cruel and destructive. Should they have come illegally? No. But we shouldnt react the way we do to it. Be compassionate. Work to stop future illegal immigration and grow legal immigration.

12 - Why doesnt that make sense? You dont want more candidates that understand immigration?

13 - *shrug* Im not getting into Trump v past presidents thats gonna spiral off topic real fast, but even if you dislike the last 2 presidents Trump has still done plenty of things to hurt Americans.

14 - Lol. THAT is going to drag us way off topic. But the way he talks about women, hispanics, muslims, and blacks is all disgusting. The list of offensive remarks and actions by Trump is miles long and Im sure youre well aware of it though Im sure you have an excuse for all of it. But at what point do you stop and realize he keeps putting his foot in his mouth because hes a bigot. Its not hard to not be an asshole if you arent actually one. Trump just is one. Even if you like his policies, he's clearly a vile human.

15 - Actually my statement was very accurate.

16 - What is the basis for this claim? Immigrants are assimilating just fine and contributing positively to the melting pot the US has always been.

1- How were his methods questionable? Again, your sources are net center left...they are far left with little data given. They spit out a conclusion while lacking the data.

2- Measuring illegal immigration: How Pew Research Center counts unauthorized immigrants in the U.S.. Pew research says they take census numbers of total immigrants and subtract lawful immigrants to find out unlawful ones. That is laughable. Not everyone fills out a census first off and then people can easily lie.

3- The unemployment rate isn’t a good indicator. Labor participation is much better. Again, common sense says immigration would not be good for wages.

4- I am for stopping all foreign aid.

5- You can say it but it doesn’t make it true.

6- only if they are employed and making enough money to not be a burden. Illegals would not help here at all.

7- illegals do not. Most first generation legal immigrants do not.

10- Their job is to provide aid in the countries that need them...the countries that have fleeing refugees.

11- I agree with DACA to an extent and with strings, that may surprise you. I believe we need a multi-faceted approach in stopping future illegal immigration but I do not believe we need to increase legal immigration. One is a wall but more importantly is punishing employers hiring them to include going after personal assets.

12- The left understands one thing about immigration and that is votes.

13- What has Trump done to hurt Americans?

14- I have never liked Trump. I don’t care if I like him if his policies are good.

16- press 2 for Spanish. Let more illegals in. DACA. open borders

 

[gkekoa]

Correction... its not an answer you like. But it is a very valid answer.

Or maybe I should take this one...

• About the age to come, we see a heavenly picture: “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb” (Revelation 7:9-10).

It isn’t an answer. It was bullshit. We need immigrants because the world is changing? Please.

Great verse...it has nothing to do with the US or even Earthly beings but OK.

 

[gkekoa]

So to be clear...you DONT want more hard working people who bring demand for goods services and labor, start businesses, provide jobs, grow the economy, and have highly productive children?

My bad dude. I thought this whole time you wanted America to do BETTER. My mistake.

I would like to make Americans hard working again first , instead of entitled cry babies. Growing the economy is never something I have pushed for and personally, I think it is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea because it means the government is involved and that isn’t a purpose for government.

 

[Sharkinva]

It isn’t an answer. It was bullshit. We need immigrants because the world is changing? Please.

Great verse...it has nothing to do with the US or even Earthly beings but OK.

How did I know you were going to say this. So GOD, the GOD you claim to believe in, only meant us to be together as one race of human beings AFTER we die. UNtil then, its quite alright to pick and choose which parts of his word you want to believe in based on how it effects your wallet and comfort level.

And sorry to break it to you, but isolationism isnt working any more. And the last world leader to try and "protect" his nation by excluding people based on ethnic and or religious beliefs ended up trying to commit genocide AND take over the world all in one fell swoop.

Not exactly the role model we want now is he??

 

[Skins2021]

Ya know ive disagreed with a lot of things said in this thread but this might be the most ignorant and arrogant post I've read.

What is your basis for the claim that i know nothing? You have brought nothing to the discussion yourself. Im happy to actually discuss the issue but you seem to be avoiding that in favor of baseless insults.

As for the university system. Something tells me i was in college more recently than you so maybe we should take my word over yours considering i ACTUALLY know what it's like at a large public university in america.

And i can tell you this much. Its nothing like how you seem to imagine it. I don't think you have any idea what it's like. Furthermore you have NO idea what my beliefs are aside from that Im pro immigration and anti trump.

In short, you have no idea what youre talking about.

Feel free to actually try and bring something of value to the conversation for once though and try to convince me otherwise.

graduated university in 2009. I know what its like. Heck I almost made one of the most regrettable mistakes ever and voted for Obama 1st term. I mean he was campaigning on my campus along with Mccain. Thankfully at the final hour I wrote it Ron Paul.

Fact is I didnt know anything and you dont know anything. Until you experience the real world and how things really work post undergrad you need to take a seat at the kids table. I just brush through your responses actually I dont even read them when it comes to anything politics. I'm also very familiar with Penn State. More familiar with Penn State then I wish I was to be honest.

Now if you have an opinion about football or movies or literally anything other then politics I would listen.

 

[Skins2021]

Its ok to name an entire religion as terrorists. But point out racist hate groups in this country, and its minimized.

1. Fact: There are only about a total estimated 100,000 militant extremist Muslims in the world. That is less than 0.01% of the global Muslim population of 1.7 billion people. “The vast majority of the estimated 85,000 to 106,000 militants fighting with militant jihadist groups around the world are fighting for purely local reasons, for instance, trying to install Sharia law in northern Nigeria or trying to impose Taliban rule on Pakistan and Afghanistan, while only a small number of these militants are focused on attacking the West.”
Source: P. Bergen, National Security Analyst and E. Schneider, Research Associate: Jihadist threat not as big as you think (Opinion) - CNN.com

puuuuuuuuuuuuuhlease

I dont think you actually believe this.

100,000 seems really light. I mean ISIS, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Taliban alone probably make up 100,000. But I do understand how and why CNN and other sympathizers would pull out statistics counting the MILITANT FIGHTING jihadist. Its a way to minimize the problem. Militant fighting jihadist does not include the wives, the grandparents, the children, the people in training, the people financially funding, the people who support and believe in the cause, the people who harbor the terrorist and so on and so on and so on. If they said 100,000 families that at least would be more truthful then what the shock value of saying there are only 100,000 radical muslims living in the world... but agendas.

You really need to read up on the history a bit a more. Islam has been militant damn near since its inception. If there isnt conflict with more progressive islamic groups then its conflict with jews, christians, or western values.

If you believe, support, and want to enact any form of Sharia you are not moderate.... at all.

If you want women to cover everything but their eyes because they are property, disallow them to drive, own land, vote, or become educated you are not moderate.... at all.

If you are stoned to death or thrown off buildings because you are a homosexual or suspected homosexual you are not moderate... at all.

The most "moderate" of Islamic countries practice some of this including fatwah. If Egypt, Turkey, and Qatar has set the bar as "moderate" this is not a conflict that will be fixed any time soon.

Now I feel big time for American Muslims and westernized muslims I do, though even the large Islamic populations in Indochina have become way more radical over the last few decades. Unfortunately American Muslims make up a very small % of Islam.

Fact is Islam is way more susceptible to perversion then any other world religion. PC culture shuns people from acknowledging, talking about, or even trying to fix this truth. We had 8 years of extremely weak leadership who wouldnt even say the words "radical islam."

The muslims living in the united states are not the same muslims worldwide who make up a majority of the religion. People need to realize this even if it goes against "anti immigration" stances.

Maybe we should give every single family in the middle east an ipad and expose them to some Michael Bay films.... or maybe just develop alternate energy (fracking), 100% cut off any interference and foreign aid, and arm the shit out of Israel and tell them good luck and move on. Let the Sheiks who love Lambos, Masseratis, American **** stars, yachts, and high stakes gambling choke on their oil. They have a foot in each camp. They love western amenities but also need to pander to the high majority of people with radical ideologies that they rule over. What a shitshow.

~end rant~

 

[Skins2021]

btw I know you are going to bring up meddling and interference and try to draw a connection to radicalism which is horse shit IMO.

So i'll leave you with this. Last time, not so long ago, we stood on the sidelines and watched from a distance was during Arab spring. Remember who Egypt elected? That spring quickly turned to winter.

I remember even my most liberal friends and family members were at a loss for words. They proclaimed that there is no hope.

 

[gkekoa]

How did I know you were going to say this. So GOD, the GOD you claim to believe in, only meant us to be together as one race of human beings AFTER we die. UNtil then, its quite alright to pick and choose which parts of his word you want to believe in based on how it effects your wallet and comfort level.

And sorry to break it to you, but isolationism isnt working any more. And the last world leader to try and "protect" his nation by excluding people based on ethnic and or religious beliefs ended up trying to commit genocide AND take over the world all in one fell swoop.

Not exactly the role model we want now is he??

How did I know you were going to say this. So GOD, the GOD you claim to believe in, only meant us to be together as one race of human beings AFTER we die. UNtil then, its quite alright to pick and choose which parts of his word you want to believe in based on how it effects your wallet and comfort level.

And sorry to break it to you, but isolationism isnt working any more. And the last world leader to try and "protect" his nation by excluding people based on ethnic and or religious beliefs ended up trying to commit genocide AND take over the world all in one fell swoop.

Not exactly the role model we want now is he??

Again, you bring up race when it doesn’t belong. Race is nothing more than natural selection in pigmentation. The Earth had become so evil, God made many languages and caused people to go their separate ways. So, yes. We will be one nation once we have a new heaven and a new Earth.

Which part am I picking and choosing? You quoted the Bible. I explained it didn’t fit because it doesn’t.

Who said we should be isolationist? Looking out for your own interests first, isn’t isolation.

I will tell you what. When we go to a dictatorship, maybe you will have a point. Again, did he say we should permanently ban Muslims from coming into this country? Why wouldn’t we ban ethnic groups from coming into this country? Seriously, do you want the Taliban invited into this country? We owe no country in 5his world a damn thing.

No, Hitler isn’t the role model we want. So show me where Trump Trump is calling for genocide and a master race. You can’t because he hasn’t.

 

[skinsdad62]

Do you have any proof of George Soros having anything to do with either of the organizations I cited?

And even if he did - can you show me why that is a massive problem?

Im not sure who you think George Soros is but he isnt magically controlling every source of information you dont like.

Do you have a source or proof that the national academies are "all liberal and push for socialist policies"? And if you do...why do you have a problem with that but not have a problem with your blatantly far right anti immigration source?

i know exactly who george soros is , what he has done and what he plans to do

you can research those yourself . he finances a ton of site , moveon.org Occupy democrats with obama and others

academia is flooded with liberals as is the MSM . all you have to do is look . i find it funny that any source from the right is automatically labeled FAR right by leftist

the issue you have with my source is it included daca people . well news flash it should have . doesnt make it far right nazi crap

you are the one who attacked sources first not me and again accepting your source as fair , as i did for the sake of argument i still say no illegals . my identity was stolen by an illegal and it took me years to fix everything so you arent convincing me of anything about anybody s right to be here

i dont support illegal immigration period . if you do you are for open borders whether you believe it or not

 

[skinsdad62]

now i will end my discussion of illegal immigration . my views are known and i dont see any changing of minds happening on this topic

 

[Skins2021]

i dont support illegal immigration period . if you do you are for open borders whether you believe it or not

thinks he does but doesnt know any better to be honest.

 

[Sharkinva]

now i will end my discussion of illegal immigration . my views are known and i dont see any changing of minds happening on this topic

I dont expect any one to change their mind. And even if they do, I dont expect any one to outright admit it.

TO be honest Im fine with the wall, because I know it will give some measure of comfort to the xenophobes in the country.

What Im not fine with is the logical progression after the wall is built. The underlying tone being set that all immigrants are possibly illegal immigrants.

Im not cool with the concept being pushed that all Muslims are enemies of America.

And Im damn sure not cool with children being detained and used as pawns to some how try and ferret out possible illegals already in the country. If another country did to Americans what is being proposed or done to these people, we would be going to war.

 

[ehb5]

Absolutely assess the credibility. Look at the data provided instead of the source. Make your own conclusions instead of having people say trust me.

Both the source and the information are important but i get your point.

 

[ehb5]

Read the Quran. Look at the history of Islam. There is no comparison between Christianity and Islam.

The man wanted to stop Muslims from coming in until we could actually set up a vetting program that works. Everybody is reactionary to an extent. If you have never said something in the heat of the moment, then you are the best person on this board. He never looked for legislation to stop all Muslims from coming in. He pushed for legislation to stop people from certain countries from coming in...the same countries Obama used.

Theres some pretty crazy stuff in the bible too. There's a reason the overwhelming majority of muslims aren't terrorists - cuz it isn't what the religion teaches.

Trump has no interest in finding out what was going on. We do vet people coming into the country. How is banning a group that is overwhelmingly peaceful the solution?