The Trey Burke Thread

[MHSL82]

Rounded up or down on the pace.

10+ Assists: 5 games. (On pace for 7 in 82)
9: 3 games. (4)
8: 5 games. (7)
7: 3 games. (4)
6: 9 games. (12)
5: 11 games. (15)
4: 9 games. (12)
3: 10 games. (13)
2: 3 games. (4)
1: 2 games. (3)

 

[MHSL82]

30 points: 1 game. (1 per 82)
20-23: 9 games. (12)
18-19: 4 games. (5)
16-17: 6 games. (8)
14-15: 6 games. (8)
12-13: 9 games. (12)
10-11: 8 games. (11)
8-9: 5 games. (7)
6-7: 6 games. (8)
4-5: 5 games. (7)
2-3: 3 games. (4)

 

[MHSL82]

3 Steals: 1 game (1 per 82)
2 Steals: 7 (9 per 82)
1 Steals: 20 (26)
0 Steals: 34 (45)

 

[MHSL82]

10 rebounds: 1 game. (1 per 82)
7: 1 game. (1)
6: 6 games. (8)
5: 4 games. (5)
4: 6 games. (8)
3: 14 games. (19)
2: 17 games. (22)
1: 10 games. (13)
0: 3 games. (4)

 

[MHSL82]

> 60%: 6 games. (8 per 82)
> 50 < 56%: 8 games. (11)
> 45 < 47.1%: 4 games. (5)
> 40 < 44%: 10 games. (13)
> 35 < 37.5%: 5 games. (7)
> 30 < 33.3%: 9 games. (12)
> 25 < 29.4%: 9 games. (12)
> 20 < 22.2%: 6 games (8)
< 20%: 5 games. (7)

 

[MHSL82]

Half his games are 33% or below! Yes, I know that means half are better, but that's not a good midpoint.

 

[nuraman00]

This is how bad it's gotten. I was going to argue with you because I don't agree. But I don't have the patience. You win. Mistake. I'm hoping that it doesn't look as much of one next year.

But I will say this, he'll be much better next year now that he's set the bar so low. He probably will even be good and I will be placatedly happy. Err, satisfied. And I will brag about his improvement. The year following that he should be good. I will brag about his goodness and better attitude than Williams (even if he doesn't become better than DWont). Now, there will be others that could be better, but it'll be to the point that I'm looking at someone else to do the improving.

I feel resigned by my desperate expectations of the player who will pose as the point guard of the Utah Jazz. It's like how Niners fans were spoiled at the QB position with Joe Montana, Steve Young, and from time to time, Jeff Garcia. I miss Stockton. I wish Jeff Hornacek were coach right now with Stockton as an assistant and Malone in the role he is in now. Sad thing is, we could have had the two realistic options and we instead have only one, the lesser role playing role.

I actually think Stockton, if he were so inclined, could be better than Hornacek, but I already stretched reality to say that he'd even be on the bench, let alone head coach it (though I do think if he were to take a coaching job, it'd have to be as a head coach - he has too much reason not to coach that assisting it up this time is not his thing). It was also a stretch for me to assume that the Jazz were going to look for anyone beyond Ty Corbin.

The Jazz Are the... I can't say it, but get a coach.

He might not be good enough to be the PG of the future for the Utah Jazz. If he doesn't improve, he should be replaced by his 3rd year. The Jazz aren't early in the rebuilding process, they need to improve and find some traction within 1-1.5 years.

So if he's not good enough, then just wait for the replacement, whether via draft, free agency, or trade. Hpefully that player will be talented enough to build around for 4-7 years.

 

[nuraman00]

Cmon, a national TV game, Sloan's retirement, and a game against an All-Star, and you don't step up?

This is exactly the time of environment where rookies make a mark for themselves, and announce they can play.

I remember watching Kirk Hinrich's first game against Baron Davis in 2002-2003. Liked seeing Hinrich take on the challenge.

I've had similar past games where I've enjoyed rookie vs. veteran matchups, with rookies playing well.

I see the "Trey Suck" Thread turned into the "Trey Burke's Rookie Growing Pains Thread" which then got merged and renamed as a part of the "The Trey Burke Thread".

 

[nuraman00]

I still don't see enough skills from Burke.

He hit some long shots, had one drive.

I don't see enough of a regular ball handling precense from him, just some isolated plays here and there.

 

[seattlefan75]

I didnt read everything that was talked about in this thread but I just wanted to say I think Trey Burke will be an awesome PG similar to maybe a Ty Lawson with this next top 5 pick you guys will get should really make the future of this team look very good. Not to forget gordon hayward hes slowly coming around

 

[MHSL82]

I still don't see enough skills from Burke.

He hit some long shots, had one drive.

I don't see enough of a regular ball handling precense from him, just some isolated plays here and there.

I've heard a few takes on it. One person said he's being phased in, as in he doesn't do the ball handling things as often until he gets the speed and flow of the game and he'll get more next year. Some say it's the system, they are spreading the ball out more, not as many pick and rolls. Some say it's just his abilities and that he'll get better, but only within a reasonable range.

I really want a new coach, one that puts the ball in the point guard's hands and lets him run the offense. Sure, mix it up a bit, but I want to see the PG with the ball most often.

 

[MHSL82]

I see the "Trey Suck" Thread turned into the "Trey Burke's Rookie Growing Pains Thread" which then got merged and renamed as a part of the "The Trey Burke Thread".

I would start a "Corbin Sucks" Thread if I felt it was more, I don't know, good?

 

[nuraman00]

I've heard a few takes on it. One person said he's being phased in, as in he doesn't do the ball handling things as often until he gets the speed and flow of the game and he'll get more next year. Some say it's the system, they are spreading the ball out more, not as many pick and rolls. Some say it's just his abilities and that he'll get better, but only within a reasonable range.

I really want a new coach, one that puts the ball in the point guard's hands and lets him run the offense. Sure, mix it up a bit, but I want to see the PG with the ball most often.

Based on what I see, the ball is in the most capable point guard's hand that is on the team. That point guard is Hayward.

When the ball is in someone else's hand, the defense doesn't break down as well.

IMO, Burke has gotten all the playing time a rookie could ask for, so he should be getting into the speed and flow of the game. I look at how much playing time a person has in his career, not how many years. At 4500-5500 minutes, a player usually shows 80-85% of his potential, so I don't think a player will improve by much after that.

I think unless someone is an elite ball handler, spreading the ball keeps the offense from becoming predictable.

For example, Boston would have both Pierce and Rondo run the offense. It's good to have multiple ball handlers that can create like that.

Even Dallas had several options, with Kidd, Barea, Terry.

They don't run many pick and rolls because:

* Kanter can set screens but not roll fast enough.

* Favors is better when the game is slowed down and he has to create his shot. He has the athleticism to roll, but can't handle that fast of a play. He'll make too many mistakes.

* Anthony Davis is involved in the most pick and rolls in the league (articles statistically confirm it), and any of Gordon, Holiday, Evans, and Roberts can execute it. That variety keeps the Pelicans opponents on their heels.

 

[nuraman00]

The ball is in Burke's hands to start possessions, so he's been given the same opportunity as most PGs who get a lot of playing time, around the league. It's not Corbin's fault that the defense doesn't break down as well.

The way I see it, it's like this. When Burke has the ball and tries to break the defense down, the defense yawns.

When Hayward or Burks tries to break it down, the defense cowers.

The same could be said of Mario Chalmers. The defense is apathetic when he has the ball. The defense is afraid when LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, or Ray Allen, with his powerful quick strides, has the ball.

Burke is like Chalmers, Hayward and Burks are like LeBron James/Dwayne Wade/Ray Allen.

Right now, Burke is best getting the ball back after someone else breaks the defense down first, then he can do something with it.

Right now, the offense ends up going through the players best equipped to create a shot, which are Hayward and Burks. Burke tries, but not much happens.

At least Burke isn't as bad as Lillard on defense. When the opposing team has the ball on offense, they don't look at Burke and see an easy path to the rim, or they don't look at him as someone who can get screened out as easily as the worst defensive PGs (Irving, Lillard, Harden, Isaiah Thomas, Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, most Lakers). Burke has shown reasonable progress on defense for a young player. Unfortunately, Carter-Williams has shown good defense for a young player, and it's not good that there's better players than Burke, at the same age range.

 

[MHSL82]

I still don't like Corbin or the style we play. Replace whomever needed but I want the Jazz system when Stockton was here. We won't have Stockton or Malone, but we'll get as close as we can and replace whoever needed. I know that is hard to do and they have to keep their jobs, so I don't expect it. Just saying what I want.

First, it sounded like that meant we needed to replace Burke and Corbin, now it sounds like it would have to be Burke, Kanter, and Favors, as none of them can run the entire pick and roll from the start of the possession to the end. I still want a different coach. I don't like spreading the ball around, I don't care how much more effective it is with our guys. PG-run offenses have worked and with the right personnel, can still work. We don't have that personnel and it takes time and the desire to get that personnel. It appears that we have neither the desire nor the time nor the personnel. I have to resign and take the fact that a spread offense can work.

 

[MHSL82]

I will give you an analogy: Alex Smith started in the NFL under defensive minded head coaches who hired offensive coordinators (playcallers) who had offensive philosophies and knowledge but were required to run it the HC's way. That way was tough running the ball and rely on the defense, who wasn't very good yet. And then when that didn't work, it was "turn it on... NOW! Alex."

Then the current coach Harbaugh came and was offensive minded and things started to click. The Niners had a great defense by that time, their running team was good, and Smith had learned how to protect the ball (before Harbaugh, by the way). But Harbaugh is and was a run-first coach. Run first can and does work. So does pass first. It just depends on your personnel and philosophy. The Niners had the run personnel. Stanford had college's best QB and an ok running team, but Harbaugh still was run-first when he was coach there. People who didn't know Harbaugh assumed that running first in SF was because he didn't trust Smith. I believed that until Harbaugh made his current QB, the handpicked QB who has a strong arm, pass the 29-30th most out of 32 teams. HIS QB passed the third least? Yep. So it wasn't Smith. Kaepernick could still be better than Smith, but there IS a philosophy at play going on.

So I wanted Smith to go to a pass-first offense, to rid him of the carried-by-his-running-team reputation and he HAS to have an offensive minded coach, one who wants to get the lead and keep playing, not get a three point lead and hold on with tough defense. Pass first can and does win in the NFL just like run first. This last year, in a pass first offense, he did well. He needs to increase his yards gained per throw and completion percentage, but in the last half of the season, when the whole playbook was there and players knew each other, he had a good yards gained per throw and a respectable completion percentage. He had a great playoff game, too.

I expect him to improve there next year and win some despite a harder schedule next year. But now, he is with an offensive minded coach who is pass first - the first time in his career AND the same offensive coordinator for the second time in his career - the last time he had the same coordinator, he improved 10% the next year statistically across the board. Don't expect that, but something. He had a different offensive coordinator every year because his OCs got head coaching jobs or were terrible and never again coached. (One exception, but Smith didn't play that year.)

 

[MHSL82]

Was Trey Burke indirectly part of the Deron Williams trade? Deron and Trey are getting similar production, with DWill in his vet years just a bit better production-wise. Obviously, beyond numbers it's more slanted to DWill.

If Burke's pick was part of the DWill trade, would we have a clear winner in the trade if we had picked Carter-Williams? Did we already win regardless? Did we lose? I'm not talking about getting something versus him walking for nothing. I'm talking about the value of DWill versus what we got for him.

 

[MHSL82]

By the way, every game almost, I update the numbers distributions above (Posts 61-65 as they are numbered now) for Burke. If I had more time, I'd do it for others regularly. I might do it for Hayward. Can't see it being worth doing for anyone else. I could do a thing on starting vs. the bench for Kanter, but distribution? Ehh.

I will try to find a breaking point for Burke sometime, but he's so up and down that it's hard to find one. I want to start a website called www.cherrypicking.com for stats that will make any point you want almost. Not to be confused with www.cherrypopping.com. DO NOT GO TO THIS LAST WEBSITE, AS I DO NOT KNOW IF ITS A WEBSITE OR NOT AND IF SO, NOT SURE IF IT'S ****.

My website would have two sections for each player of any sport. One to cite to show that the player is good and one to show that he isn't. Some you would find an error message saying, "WTF are you thinking? You'll never need to prove this." This is when everyone knows he sucks and there's no redeeming cherry picking to use or when everyone knows he's great and saying how great his stats could be cherry picked does not raise the praise much. It would throw a bone, perhaps, like saying "In one game, XXXXXXX YYYYYYYYYY made 100% of his shots from the paint in the second quarter of this one game" and go on to show a 1-1, 2 Pts, stat line. (Or say the opposite that they were 0% from the field in minute 22 of said game.)

 

[nuraman00]

I still don't like Corbin or the style we play. Replace whomever needed but I want the Jazz system when Stockton was here. We won't have Stockton or Malone, but we'll get as close as we can and replace whoever needed. I know that is hard to do and they have to keep their jobs, so I don't expect it. Just saying what I want.

First, it sounded like that meant we needed to replace Burke and Corbin, now it sounds like it would have to be Burke, Kanter, and Favors, as none of them can run the entire pick and roll from the start of the possession to the end. I still want a different coach. I don't like spreading the ball around, I don't care how much more effective it is with our guys. PG-run offenses have worked and with the right personnel, can still work. We don't have that personnel and it takes time and the desire to get that personnel. It appears that we have neither the desire nor the time nor the personnel. I have to resign and take the fact that a spread offense can work.

For the time being:

What if the offense wasn't spread, but run through Hayward full time? And, he ran pick and rolls?

And, instead of Favors or Kanter being used in rolls, it was Burks rolling? I don't think Favors or Kanter have the ability to do well in pick and rolls. Gortat would be better. But Gortat isn't on the team.

Jason Kidd and Vince Carter would run a pick and roll in New Jersey.

This would also use Burks in the way he's best used, which is going to the basket.

Stockton himself was a badass screen setter. I wish I could find clips of the screens he would set. I don't remember how those plays looked though, so I don't know what the byproduct was. Which is why I want to study them. I think the byproduct of some of Malone's screens, especially on the wings, were to set up driving lanes for guards like Stockton and Hornacek, so they weren't used for Malone himself.


The only thing is, Burks isn't ideal for setting good screens, not a wide enough body. Kanter would have to set the screens that freed up Burks. Right now I can't visualize how Kanter and Burks would have to be involved, spatially, as well as their defenders, but I think this happens with other teams. When I study good teams in the playoffs, I'll try to make a note of when I see this. Actually, a double screen would probably have to be used. Ok, that makes more sense.



So, using the system of the flex offense as before, what would you, MHSL82, say to Hayward running the offense fulltime, and Kanter and possibly Favors setting screens for Burks?

Given the personnel, and the desire to run the system, that's how I see it best used, to achieve the system.

 

[nuraman00]

Carter could set his own screens though, as he had that wider body.

Hmm, maybe Burks could still be used to set screens. I remember in one game in 2003-2004, Nash screened out TWO Lakers. Antione Walker then used the freed up space to do a fancy dribbling move, then drive the the hoop for a layup. If someone small like Nash could not only set a screen, but screen out two guys, maybe having a wide body isn't everything. Then again, that was one of the few times I remember Nash setting a screen. I think Stockton set a lot more of them.

I don't remember how often Kidd set screens, as the New Jersey offense was more about drive and kicks, I think. Also, it's just been too long. He hasnt been a primary ball handler in years.

Same with Payton. I've already forgotten the details of how they played overall, I only remember bits and pieces now.