Second cup of Coffee Talk

[forty_three]

To Pay for Wall, Trump Would Cut Proven Border Security Measures

And in other news, in order to pay for my new energy efficient door in my house, I am going to remove the roof and all the windows.

 

[Darkstone42]

I have never understood how opponents come to the conclusion that these segments of the population “don’t have access to proper voter ID”. The study that the article links to states that research was done regarding “access” then to show the results for this “access” research shows tables with results of polls of how many people from different demographics have and don’t have a document that would suffice as voter ID. It makes no mention of why or why not these people have passable voter ID, just that they don’t have it and then comes to the conclusion that “While both numbers are regrettable, the data demonstrate that blacks are disproportionately impacted by the Indiana law”, which, how exactly is that data demonstrating anything other than fewer black people have a document that would pass as a voter ID? It has no data on if these people would want to vote in the first place.

It also totally ignores the fact that the percentages of each demographic studied that do have a passable voter ID far exceeds the voting turnout rate for each of those demographics. While a few people may get fucked over at the poll, it’s hardly anywhere near enough of a percentage of the potential electorate to turn an election result. The large, large majority of the people they’re arguing over in courts simply don’t give a fuck about voting and if they did could get the required identification in a matter of days.

If you have the time and ability to get up, go to a polling station and vote, you have the ability to get up, go to a gov’t office and get a state ID card.

This is not necessarily true. There are far more polling locations than government offices in most cities, and in some cities (like mine, incidentally) the proper government offices are located on the edges of town.

When I needed to update my driver's license, it took me three hours. The MVD was about 10 miles away, and there was no reasonably safe bike path to it (I couldn't figure out a route that didn't put me on what was basically a highway), so I had to take the bus. Except from where I was, that meant transferring buses three times. And walking about a half a mile to even get to the first bus. And the bus schedules didn't line up very well, so I had to wait about 15 minutes between each. Getting to work from the MVD was similar.

For someone who's especially poor, or whose job isn't especially secure, finding a sufficient block of time which also lines up with a government office being open can be prohibitively difficult. And then that person better hope things don't get hung up at the office for some reason. (A friend of mine planned a trip to the MVD, only to find out when he got there that their computers were down and he'd have to come back another day.)

While these laws don't explicitly block people from voting, they add a heck of a lot of extra effort to exercise a fundamental democratic right, and that's the bigger problem. Especially since they're designed to prevent a thing which basically doesn't happen anyway. So they're creating greater difficulty for folks to vote, without any real need to do so.

 

[forty_three]

While these laws don't explicitly block people from voting, they add a heck of a lot of extra effort to exercise a fundamental democratic right, and that's the bigger problem. Especially since they're designed to prevent a thing which basically doesn't happen anyway. So they're creating greater difficulty for folks to vote, without any real need to do so.

In addition, there is no effort at all to explain or engage certain communities in the democratic process. Instead of saying "why bother, they don't vote anyway" there should be an effort to solve the question of "Why don't they bother to vote?"

As Coolio said:
They say I got to learn, but nobody's here to teach me
If they can't understand, how can they reach me?

Large segments of the population are completely disenfranchised, and making things harder for them isn't going to change that.


Which, I suspect, is the goal.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

This is not necessarily true. There are far more polling locations than government offices in most cities, and in some cities (like mine, incidentally) the proper government offices are located on the edges of town.

When I needed to update my driver's license, it took me three hours. The MVD was about 10 miles away, and there was no reasonably safe bike path to it (I couldn't figure out a route that didn't put me on what was basically a highway), so I had to take the bus. Except from where I was, that meant transferring buses three times. And walking about a half a mile to even get to the first bus. And the bus schedules didn't line up very well, so I had to wait about 15 minutes between each. Getting to work from the MVD was similar.

For someone who's especially poor, or whose job isn't especially secure, finding a sufficient block of time which also lines up with a government office being open can be prohibitively difficult. And then that person better hope things don't get hung up at the office for some reason. (A friend of mine planned a trip to the MVD, only to find out when he got there that their computers were down and he'd have to come back another day.)

While these laws don't explicitly block people from voting, they add a heck of a lot of extra effort to exercise a fundamental democratic right, and that's the bigger problem. Especially since they're designed to prevent a thing which basically doesn't happen anyway. So they're creating greater difficulty for folks to vote, without any real need to do so.

You need ID to open a bank account. You need ID to rent or purchase a home. There are tons of things that people need an ID for unless they are living in a tent and living off the land, in which case I'm guessing voting isn't much of a concern for them.

I was just checking some of the locations in Indiana on their BMV site and every location I clicked was open on Saturday.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

You need ID to open a bank account. You need ID to rent or purchase a home. There are tons of things that people need an ID for unless they are living in a tent and living off the land, in which case I'm guessing voting isn't much of a concern for them.

I was just checking some of the locations in Indiana on their BMV site and every location I clicked was open on Saturday.

That's really an irrelevant argument though. Voting is a Constitutional right. Opening a bank account or purchasing a home is not. And choosing not to vote is also protected. But because someone makes the choice not to vote doesn't mean that they shouldn't have the same access as those who choose to vote.

I won't opine on Indiana specifically because I don't know enough about it, but when they tried to pass a similar type of law in NC, they made the similar arguments about what all you need an ID for, how easy it is to get, etc. But they provided no mechanism (the second attempt did after the first was struck down) to accommodate those people who didn't have an ID and didn't have the paperwork to get one.

For example, older African American residents from rural NC were sometimes not issued a birth certificate until about the 70s and couldn't get an ID (one they considered acceptable for voting at least) without a birth certificate. There were also numerous coastal residents who lost all of their paperwork in hurricanes over the years.

And then the argument becomes a how many argument. How many voters should we disenfranchise to limit fraud? What is an acceptable ratio of disenfranchised voters to fraudulent votes? 10-1? 100-1? Until they can provide real evidence to support these claims of widespread voter fraud that would be prevented by an ID (i.e., not absentee, which is actually the number one way of committing fraud), the answer in my mind is 0. There is no acceptable number of voters to disenfranchise.

 

[dare2be]

Just because you have ID, doesn't mean it's treated as valid to vote. See "voter caging"

New federal court order green lights Republican efforts to ‘supercharge voter suppression’

 

[forty_three]

School board president: Everybody wants to take the side of the 'poor little woman'

School board prez sounds like a real winner. So glad he got his raise

/s

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

That's really an irrelevant argument though. Voting is a Constitutional right. Opening a bank account or purchasing a home is not. And choosing not to vote is also protected. But because someone makes the choice not to vote doesn't mean that they shouldn't have the same access as those who choose to vote.

I won't opine on Indiana specifically because I don't know enough about it, but when they tried to pass a similar type of law in NC, they made the similar arguments about what all you need an ID for, how easy it is to get, etc. But they provided no mechanism (the second attempt did after the first was struck down) to accommodate those people who didn't have an ID and didn't have the paperwork to get one.

For example, older African American residents from rural NC were sometimes not issued a birth certificate until about the 70s and couldn't get an ID (one they considered acceptable for voting at least) without a birth certificate. There were also numerous coastal residents who lost all of their paperwork in hurricanes over the years.

And then the argument becomes a how many argument. How many voters should we disenfranchise to limit fraud? What is an acceptable ratio of disenfranchised voters to fraudulent votes? 10-1? 100-1? Until they can provide real evidence to support these claims of widespread voter fraud that would be prevented by an ID (i.e., not absentee, which is actually the number one way of committing fraud), the answer in my mind is 0. There is no acceptable number of voters to disenfranchise.

Owning a gun is also a constitutional right but you guys need ID to purchase a firearm, right?

Those coastal residents likely had an ID if they purchased or rented a home.

The black people and birth certificates thing sounds like a problem, but was anything done about this? You said they couldn't get an ID without a birth certificate but got certificates in the 70s, does this mean they can now get an ID?

Just because you have ID, doesn't mean it's treated as valid to vote. See "voter caging"

New federal court order green lights Republican efforts to ‘supercharge voter suppression’

See, this is an actual problem. Let's focus on this.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Not for nothing, you need a gov't photo ID to be placed on the voter rolls in Canada and our elections run just fine.

 

[Darkstone42]

You need ID to open a bank account. You need ID to rent or purchase a home. There are tons of things that people need an ID for unless they are living in a tent and living off the land, in which case I'm guessing voting isn't much of a concern for them.

I was just checking some of the locations in Indiana on their BMV site and every location I clicked was open on Saturday.

You don't need an ID to rent a home. Not always. I needed one once, but haven't in the other three places I've lived on my own. It depends on the landlord's preferences, and many very low-income areas likely don't bother with IDs since they know the folks willing to rent from them might not have them, and they want the revenue.

And being open on Saturday isn't necessarily going to help any of these people, either. What about folks who work multiple jobs to provide for their families? A DMV/MVD being open on Saturdays isn't necessarily going to help those folks.

And all this assumes also, as sabresfaninthesouth points out, that they have everything they need on hand to get the ID even if they can get to the government office, which they might not.

 

[Darkstone42]

Owning a gun is also a constitutional right but you guys need ID to purchase a firearm, right?

Those coastal residents likely had an ID if they purchased or rented a home.

The black people and birth certificates thing sounds like a problem, but was anything done about this? You said they couldn't get an ID without a birth certificate but got certificates in the 70s, does this mean they can now get an ID?


See, this is an actual problem. Let's focus on this.

But unlike the voter ID thing, there's an actual problem to be addressed with respect to gun ownership: an inordinate number of people die from being shot every year.

There is effectively no in-person voter fraud, so why are we making it harder to vote legitimately and legally? On the other hand, there are a lot of actual murders and accidental deaths involving firearms, so maybe we should try to limit that. And of course, there's the higher stakes of the loss of human life.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Owning a gun is also a constitutional right but you guys need ID to purchase a firearm, right?

Those coastal residents likely had an ID if they purchased or rented a home.

The black people and birth certificates thing sounds like a problem, but was anything done about this? You said they couldn't get an ID without a birth certificate but got certificates in the 70s, does this mean they can now get an ID?


See, this is an actual problem. Let's focus on this.

Most gun related items are state-to-state, just like voting, so there's no one-size answer. But for many gun purchases - and it even depends on the weapon type - no, you don't need an ID. But there's so many nuances it's hard to generalize. For example, "assault rifle" vs handgun, dealer vs private sale, Texas vs Connecticut.

To clarify my remarks on the birth certificates, it wasn't until the 70s that they started issuing birth certificates to every new birth, regardless of race. Many African Americans born before then were never issued a BC. Some mechanisms were put in place to try to assist with this, but they were struck down as an unreasonable burden.

 

[Darkstone42]

But unlike the voter ID thing, there's an actual problem to be addressed with respect to gun ownership: an inordinate number of people die from being shot every year.

There is effectively no in-person voter fraud, so why are we making it harder to vote legitimately and legally? On the other hand, there are a lot of actual murders and accidental deaths involving firearms, so maybe we should try to limit that. And of course, there's the higher stakes of the loss of human life.

Most gun related items are state-to-state, just like voting, so there's no one-size answer. But for many gun purchases - and it even depends on the weapon type - no, you don't need an ID. But there's so many nuances it's hard to generalize. For example, "assault rifle" vs handgun, dealer vs private sale, Texas vs Connecticut.

To clarify my remarks on the birth certificates, it wasn't until the 70s that they started issuing birth certificates to every new birth, regardless of race. Many African Americans born before then were never issued a BC. Some mechanisms were put in place to try to assist with this, but they were struck down as an unreasonable burden.

And also, yes, it's not always necessary to have an ID for a gun anyway.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

You don't need an ID to rent a home. Not always. I needed one once, but haven't in the other three places I've lived on my own. It depends on the landlord's preferences, and many very low-income areas likely don't bother with IDs since they know the folks willing to rent from them might not have them, and they want the revenue.

And being open on Saturday isn't necessarily going to help any of these people, either. What about folks who work multiple jobs to provide for their families? A DMV/MVD being open on Saturdays isn't necessarily going to help those folks.

And all this assumes also, as sabresfaninthesouth points out, that they have everything they need on hand to get the ID even if they can get to the government office, which they might not.

These points are making so many excuses for something so simple. For the large, large majority, if someone really, really wants an ID card they can get it. It may take a little effort in some cases but they can get it. They may have to hike a mountain, fight a rabid wolverine and take a Saturday off work but they can get it.

But unlike the voter ID thing, there's an actual problem to be addressed with respect to gun ownership: an inordinate number of people die from being shot every year.

There is effectively no in-person voter fraud, so why are we making it harder to vote legitimately and legally? On the other hand, there are a lot of actual murders and accidental deaths involving firearms, so maybe we should try to limit that. And of course, there's the higher stakes of the loss of human life.

Because it's a simple and easy check of an individual's eligibility to vote.

And also, yes, it's not always necessary to have an ID for a gun anyway.

And it's not always necessary to have ID to vote. Evens it out I guess.

/Almost all gun stores, most gun shows and internet transactions of firearm sales require photo ID. The risk of a "bad" sale is far too great for most vendors to risk.

To clarify my remarks on the birth certificates, it wasn't until the 70s that they started issuing birth certificates to every new birth, regardless of race. Many African Americans born before then were never issued a BC. Some mechanisms were put in place to try to assist with this, but they were struck down as an unreasonable burden.

Yes, that sounds like it would pose a problem that should be addressed. It would be highly unfair if someone couldn't vote because they couldn't get an ID due to a circumstance like this.

 

[Darkstone42]

These points are making so many excuses for something so simple. For the large, large majority, if someone really, really wants an ID card they can get it. It may take a little effort in some cases but they can get it. They may have to hike a mountain, fight a rabid wolverine and take a Saturday off work but they can get it.

The large large majority isn't good enough when it comes to making sure people are able to vote. Everyone is the threshold of good enough.

And it shouldn't take any effort. It should just happen. It not just happening hampers our system of government, and there's no two ways about that.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The large large majority isn't good enough when it comes to making sure people are able to vote. Everyone is the threshold of good enough.

And it shouldn't take any effort. It should just happen. It not just happening hampers our system of government, and there's no two ways about that.

Everyone is entitled to an ID, just as everyone is entitled to register to vote if eligible.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Not for nothing, you need a gov't photo ID to be placed on the voter rolls in Canada and our elections run just fine.

I'm pretty sure you don't need an ID here. I think if you just turn up with a piece of official mail with your name and address on it you can't be denied your right to vote.

And as for the elections running just fine? Well, that's not the point. The point is that certain people don't get to vote. With voter turn out often under 50% in Canada, can we be sure that the elections are truly "free"? I'm not sure I'd make that bet.

 

[thedddd]

Governors want to know why Florida got out of the massive new offshore drilling plan

Talk about partisan politics at it's best.
Also the hypocrisy of pushing state rights except now.

 

[elocomotive]

If you have the time and ability to get up, go to a polling station and vote, you have the ability to get up, go to a gov’t office and get a state ID card.

It took me months to get a license in the District last year. The new real ID laws in particular make it harder. I went to the DMV three separate times with what I thought was the correct documentation. I had looked it up on the Web site beforehand. I am a professional with a law degree who has no issues with reading comprehension. It was beyond frustrating. It wasn't free.

I believe there is value to the notion that it should be easier to exercise a quintessential right in a democracy than it is to do other things. I think faith in the system and in people is also important in a democracy. And lacking the identification of a serious problem with how the system has successfully worked for years, I find those values to outweigh the need to change the system in a way that, at best, solves a problem that is extremely insignificant, and at worst, disenfranchises people already on the fringes of the system.

 

[elocomotive]

Everyone is entitled to an ID, just as everyone is entitled to register to vote if eligible.

Voting is free. You pay for an ID card.