Lions=TehSucks: This is for you buddy.

[broncosmitty]

Lol. Right on Micro!

Rob, I was just using the same logic Smitty used about Stafford and how he shouldn't be getting paid. Of course CJ deserves his money, but he does make costly mistakes at times.

Actually, no,..... you weren't. When I state my opinion on how Stafford needs to continue to improve and develop there are plenty of folks who dont actually read what I say. They make assumptions, then deflect attention away from Staffords short comings (imo they are shortcomings) onto various other things.(Jon Kitna, Daunte Culpepper, Joey Harrington and other teams for example) But Im not going to go into it further. Just wanted to let you know that wasn't the same logic I used in previous conversations. (I've been critical of CJ over the years as well. Most notably when we play at Soldier Field every season but this one. Caught a lot of flack for mentioning he was team leader in drops)

 

[themuzzer]

Actually, no,..... you weren't. When I state my opinion on how Stafford needs to continue to improve and develop there are plenty of folks who dont actually read what I say. They make assumptions, then deflect attention away from Staffords short comings (imo they are shortcomings) onto various other things.(Jon Kitna, Daunte Culpepper, Joey Harrington and other teams for example) But Im not going to go into it further. Just wanted to let you know that wasn't the same logic I used in previous conversations. (I've been critical of CJ over the years as well. Most notably when we play at Soldier Field every season but this one. Caught a lot of flack for mentioning he was team leader in drops)

CJ should be the team leader in drops when he's targeted 70 to 90 percent of the time......I don't like Bush fumbling the ball but if I had to guess he fumbles the ball a lot more then Mikel Leshoure simply because he gets the ball.

 

[lionstop1]

Stafford does have some shortcomings, no question. I don't mind talking about those things at all, but some people (not you Smitty) acts as if he isn't supposed to. We can sit here and pick apart most players and find the things that they're good at and the things they're bad at.

If you're the type that feels accuracy is the most important thing for a qb to have, you probably won't like Stafford too much. I'm guessing that he'll never be tops in most accurate qbs. If you like gun-slingers, the types that can make any throw, anywhere on the field, then you probably like Staff. He's not a short passing, West Coast style qb, he's all vertical.

 

[Wazmankg]

Accuracy IS the most important physical attribute a QB can have. I don't think there's much controversy about that.

 

[broncosmitty]

Stafford does have some shortcomings, no question. I don't mind talking about those things at all, but some people (not you Smitty) acts as if he isn't supposed to. We can sit here and pick apart most players and find the things that they're good at and the things they're bad at.

If you're the type that feels accuracy is the most important thing for a qb to have, you probably won't like Stafford too much. I'm guessing that he'll never be tops in most accurate qbs. If you like gun-slingers, the types that can make any throw, anywhere on the field, then you probably like Staff. He's not a short passing, West Coast style qb, he's all vertical.

My main problem is that as of now, he can't make every type of throw. Those short swing passes and mid to short range out routes are a big part of almost every offense. And in my opinion, he's avoided improving that part of his game by altering throws. If he could get himself to decent in that area I think we'd have ourselves an actual elite QB. (There are other issues, like accuracy in general, but every QB has some kind of imperfection, this one is glaring to me though). Good thing is, it's an area that can be worked on and polished. (Heres part of my logic on not being pleased with the early extension) As hard as Andy Dalton and Alex Smith might try, they'll never be capable of matching Matty's arm strength.

 

[broncosmitty]

Accuracy IS the most important physical attribute a QB can have. I don't think there's much controversy about that.

Accuracy is a learned and refined skill. It's not a talent, like having a lazercannonrocketmisslelaucher for an arm.

 

[lionstop1]

I would definitely have to see where he misses completely on swing passes and intermediate passes more often than when he completes them to buy into that one. From what I've seen over the years, he's done pretty well with screen passes, swing passes, crossing routes and that pass where the running back comes across the middle for the dump-off. Maybe I'm wrong thoigh. What I remember mostly is tons of drops, with some over-throws in there too!

But to call Stafford inaccurate is a bit much IMO. His ability to take a little off those throws at times is where he gets into trouble. I think accuracy is a talent when I think about it. I'm not so sure it can be taught in a way that it can eventually be mastered. Its either you have it or you don't. BUT, it can be improved.

 

[gvsulaker82]

I also believe Stafford is an elite QB. I don't believe Ogeltree, Ross, Durham, Pettigrew, Fauria, etc. are elite pass catchers.

This. Look how incredible stafford has been with these guys. This is stuff brees, rodgers, brady and manning do.

 

[gvsulaker82]

I'd be all for that. Suh has had some good moments, then disappears entirely. The Lions D-line as a whole is not getting sacks or hits on opposing QBs (except late hits). Not sure that Suh would command that much in return, though, given how much he's regressed.

Suh and fairley have been huge all year. Its the inconsistency at defensive end combined with a poor back seven that is the problem. Suh and fairley are two of the few defenders that are having good years for the lions.

 

[gvsulaker82]

My main problem is that as of now, he can't make every type of throw. Those short swing passes and mid to short range out routes are a big part of almost every offense. And in my opinion, he's avoided improving that part of his game by altering throws. If he could get himself to decent in that area I think we'd have ourselves an actual elite QB. (There are other issues, like accuracy in general, but every QB has some kind of imperfection, this one is glaring to me though). Good thing is, it's an area that can be worked on and polished. (Heres part of my logic on not being pleased with the early extension) As hard as Andy Dalton and Alex Smith might try, they'll never be capable of matching Matty's arm strength.

You are right, he cant make every throw, and there are very, very few quarterbacks that come into the league and are elite in their first two seasons. Stafford is already the best qb the lions have ever had and hes played in what 50 games? Hes only getting better, nfl defenses are so much more superior, so much faster than college defenses, hes picking up on it and when he finally figures it out, watch out. I would put him at about 85% there.

 

[broncosmitty]

This is season five....

 

[Wazmankg]

Accuracy is a learned and refined skill. It's not a talent, like having a lazercannonrocketmisslelaucher for an arm.

I agree for the most part. It can be refined and improved, but some guys are innately more accurate than others just as with any other physical skill. It is the most important physical attribute for a QB. Obviously you can't be a complete noodle arm in the NFL, but it doesn't matter how hard you can throw it if you can't hit what you're aiming at consistently. Not that Staff is that bad. He's clearly a better QB than anyone we've ever had. But hitting the short stuff is just too important in today's game and he has to get better at it.

 

[broncosmitty]

I agree for the most part. It can be refined and improved, but some guys are innately more accurate than others just as with any other physical skill. It is the most important physical attribute for a QB. Obviously you can't be a complete noodle arm in the NFL, but it doesn't matter how hard you can throw it if you can't hit what you're aiming at consistently. Not that Staff is that bad. He's clearly a better QB than anyone we've ever had. But hitting the short stuff is just too important in today's game and he has to get better at it.

Yeah, I suppose that you and Yao are right. Some guys are born with it to an extent. But unlike many physical attributes it can be improved upon. (I do t think he's that bad either. I just see a lot of room to improve. He's got a lot to work with that guys with lesser talents don't.)

 

[Wazmankg]

I would definitely have to see where he misses completely on swing passes and intermediate passes more often than when he completes them to buy into that one. From what I've seen over the years, he's done pretty well with screen passes, swing passes, crossing routes and that pass where the running back comes across the middle for the dump-off. Maybe I'm wrong thoigh. What I remember mostly is tons of drops, with some over-throws in there too!

But to call Stafford inaccurate is a bit much IMO. His ability to take a little off those throws at times is where he gets into trouble. I think accuracy is a talent when I think about it. I'm not so sure it can be taught in a way that it can eventually be mastered. Its either you have it or you don't. BUT, it can be improved.

So you're only looking for just > 50% on the swing passes & short stuff. Sorry but that swing pass has to be 90%-er. Great QBs don't miss that one once a game.... not even close. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just put it where it can be caught. He misses it completely way too much. When you get Reggie uncovered in the flat , you just can't miss that.

 

[gvsulaker82]

This is season five....

Right, but he hasnt played five * 16 games. Im just guessing its around 50, im not 100 percent. Hes what, 25. Hes headed into his prime the next year or two.

 

[Rollingthndr]

I agree about the DLine, and one N. Suh in particular. He isn't being doubled on every play so that excuse is gone. He isn't a wrecking ball. He didn't make the stat sheet yesterday. Fairley is the lynch-pin of that DL, not Suh. Great players produce and he aint producing. Lets turn Suh's bloated salary into a rookie DT and 2 or 3 solid veterans.

On your point about Calvin not earning his paycheck... I think that is crazy talk.

Generally I agree with most what you say Rob but I gotta take the other side of this coin. This guy is an elite player who needs to be accounted for at all times. Also, he is about to enter the prime of his career and made two all pro teams already. The defense sucks as is and I don't want to see the Lions let their best defensive player leave.

 

[broncosmitty]

Right, but he hasnt played five * 16 games. Im just guessing its around 50, im not 100 percent. Hes what, 25. Hes headed into his prime the next year or two.

Im not giving him a free pass on account of injuries. A typical NFL career is shorter than the time Staff has been in the league. Hes a vet now, despite his age. But... I hope you're right laker.

 

[gvsulaker82]

Im not giving him a free pass on account of injuries. A typical NFL career is shorter than the time Staff has been in the league. Hes a vet now, despite his age. But... I hope you're right laker.

True, nfl careers are extremely short on average but statistically that takes into account mostly scrubs. Quarterbacks and great ones play 15-20 years. If staff gets injured, of course its a moot point as with any player, but unlike a RB he will not be dropping off at 30.

 

[broncosmitty]

20 year careers are pretty rare for non-kickers. (I believe kickers actually have the shortest careers on average. But great ones stick around). The Brett Favres, Vinny Testeverdes, Steve DeBergs and George Blandas(not really a QB for most of his career) don't come around often. I understand why so many Lions fans have high hopes of a decade and a half of great things. Just can't share in the longggg term optimism. (But I do expect good things)

 

[Wazmankg]

Yeah, he's still only 25 and he does a lot of things very well and I think his intelligence is underrated. He's very smart... football smart. Idk, maybe he's smart in other areas too. He has great pocket presence. The improved OL play isn't the only reason he hasn't been sacked much. He knows when to gtfo of there and he rarely gets sacked outside the pocket. He throws it away. He rarely makes reckless throws when there's nothing there and he's pretty cool-headed and clutch in close, late game situations.... and then there's the cannon.