Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson?

Rockinkuwait said:

Moss had MASSIVE coverage shifts, safeties back out 30 yards off the line providing zero run support when he was out there. Opening lots up underneath for the run and pass game. Calvin had to adjust a bit to the NFL. The had to adjust to Moss when he showed up. It was almost funny watching those games (big Cunnningham fan so I watched a lot of them). New team and at some point the safety would think 15 yards back was enough cushion and nope it wasn't. Took the league about 3 years to really adjust to Randy and realize his speed was truly that fast.

And saying CJ had no run game is exactly why CJ's teams threw the ball about 90 more times a season (in their primes, first 7 years) than Moss' team. I don't see how a coach calling a run does a favor to the receiver making plays. Moss never had a QB throw it 740 times. Despite that over his first 7 years (their physical primes) Moss had 200 fewer yards (less than 30 a season fewer) and 24 more TD's (3 fewer fumbles too).

Moss in his prime was the best deep threat the NFL ever saw. And the only WR I'd put up there with Rice/Hutson when it came to putting the ball in the end zone for points. 7 years into Moss' career he was 7th in receiving TD's all time (9 year career has Calvin at 22nd). Call that a 2 trick pony, like all Lawrence Taylor could do well was rush the QB and all Barry Sanders could do well was make guys miss. That's the tricks to have. Look at what WR's get paid, it's the ones with those tricks.

Calvin was more of the freak of nature and a great great receiver in his prime as passing offenses keep exploding. Better teammate sure. Elite prime yes. But Moss was the guy who you'd lose track of twice in a game and that'd be 14 points and the reason they won. Calvin while amazing didn't make you pay like that.


And I will say a big part of me when talking about the best of the best, the truly elite guys is rather than make reasons why a player didn't do something as well (his QB wasn't as good, his line wasn't as good, he played in scheme X) I tend to go with the guy that accomplished what the other didn't.

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Spot on

I think people saying 'this isn't close' and things like that are a little nuts. It is pretty close. Both WRs could draw double and triple teams on a regular basis. The difference is that Moss was a specialty player and Megatron was an all-around player. Moss was so fast that he was able to trick DBs to get behind them by shifting speed on deep balls. Megatron didn't have any tricks to score TDs except for the occasional obscene jump ball. I'm taking the specialty player.

Calvin was a man among boys Moss was a freak Moss is my choice

SonnyCID said:

Johnson.

Randy only ran a few routes. Of course he was unstoppable on them without safety help. But Calvin could split double teams better because he ran a wider array of routes.

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This man watched the games too.

No slight to Moss, helluva WR and one of my favorite alltime, but he wasn't going across the middle for nobody. Outside MEANT hash mark to the sideline...at most a skinny post.

Both freaks of nature. I'll take Moss over any WR ever.

ATL96Steeler said:

This man watched the games too.

No slight to Moss, helluva WR and one of my favorite alltime, but he wasn't going across the middle for nobody. Outside MEANT hash mark to the sideline...at most a skinny post.

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But does it matter? Its like complaining that Tom Brady is a bad athlete.

Clayton said:

But does it matter? Its like complaining that Tom Brady is a bad athlete.

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In a comparison such as this...yes...in terms of effectiveness...no

NinerSickness said:

Megatron at his peak was TO minus the drops.

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Calvin was almost a guarantee to drop it if it mattered.

Clayton said:

But does it matter? Its like complaining that Tom Brady is a bad athlete.

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I would say it matters in the type of system you are envisioning and the type of QB. Such as for a Kubiak system that prides itself on the misdirection and ability to get the big play deep on the boot play action play I would say I would much rather have Moss in that system. If I am running the quick 3 step slant pattern type offense then I might choose Calvin.

Rockinkuwait said:

Moss had MASSIVE coverage shifts, safeties back out 30 yards off the line providing zero run support when he was out there. Opening lots up underneath for the run and pass game. Calvin had to adjust a bit to the NFL. The had to adjust to Moss when he showed up. It was almost funny watching those games (big Cunnningham fan so I watched a lot of them). New team and at some point the safety would think 15 yards back was enough cushion and nope it wasn't. Took the league about 3 years to really adjust to Randy and realize his speed was truly that fast.

And saying CJ had no run game is exactly why CJ's teams threw the ball about 90 more times a season (in their primes, first 7 years) than Moss' team. I don't see how a coach calling a run does a favor to the receiver making plays. Moss never had a QB throw it 740 times. Despite that over his first 7 years (their physical primes) Moss had 200 fewer yards (less than 30 a season fewer) and 24 more TD's (3 fewer fumbles too).

Moss in his prime was the best deep threat the NFL ever saw. And the only WR I'd put up there with Rice/Hutson when it came to putting the ball in the end zone for points. 7 years into Moss' career he was 7th in receiving TD's all time (9 year career has Calvin at 22nd). Call that a 2 trick pony, like all Lawrence Taylor could do well was rush the QB and all Barry Sanders could do well was make guys miss. That's the tricks to have. Look at what WR's get paid, it's the ones with those tricks.

Calvin was more of the freak of nature and a great great receiver in his prime as passing offenses keep exploding. Better teammate sure. Elite prime yes. But Moss was the guy who you'd lose track of twice in a game and that'd be 14 points and the reason they won. Calvin while amazing didn't make you pay like that.


And I will say a big part of me when talking about the best of the best, the truly elite guys is rather than make reasons why a player didn't do something as well (his QB wasn't as good, his line wasn't as good, he played in scheme X) I tend to go with the guy that accomplished what the other didn't.

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Great post, but I think Moss was the freak of nature...that height and speed combination was unique to the era. The one area that Moss truly separated from CJ was the deep ball...I agree he was the best deep ball WR the league had seen and maybe still to the this day.

CJ played a lot of bad teams in DET...Moss played on pretty good teams most of his career...was the #1 guym but the not the only guy of note.

Mebert said:

Calvin was almost a guarantee to drop it if it mattered.

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Only the last 2 years after his fingers were all busted up. One of the downsides of running every route all over the field is that he got the shit kicked out of him regularly. Lots of blindside hits and cuts.

ATL96Steeler said:

This man watched the games too.

No slight to Moss, helluva WR and one of my favorite alltime, but he wasn't going across the middle for nobody. Outside MEANT hash mark to the sideline...at most a skinny post.

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Well he did more as rules changed and you could no longer headhunt over the middle (05 was when those rules really started getting implemented and being enforced after the initial 1995 one. But yeah Minny he really didn't run a lot of the even routes (over the middle stuff) outside of the red zone. While that was something not there a whole lot in his game in his prime, to me that isn't a big thing considering what he could do. It's like saying Brady doesn't make guys miss when he scrambles or Von Miller isn't great in pass coverage for an outside linebacker. If that's what you are using them for, you are using them wrong. Now Moss of course went over the middle a bit, but a 10 yard slant doesn't stand out, the 50 yard 9 route does.


Kind of an interesting video. Goes on forever, probably 100 quick slants and posts over the middle, but just watch the first few. Those hits are 15 yard penalties today.

Rockinkuwait said:

Well he did more as rules changed and you could no longer headhunt over the middle (05 was when those rules really started getting implemented and being enforced after the initial 1995 one. But yeah Minny he really didn't run a lot of the even routes (over the middle stuff) outside of the red zone. While that was something not there a whole lot in his game in his prime, to me that isn't a big thing considering what he could do. It's like saying Brady doesn't make guys miss when he scrambles or Von Miller isn't great in pass coverage for an outside linebacker. If that's what you are using them for, you are using them wrong. Now Moss of course went over the middle a bit, but a 10 yard slant doesn't stand out, the 50 yard 9 route does.


Kind of an interesting video. Goes on forever, probably 100 quick slants and posts over the middle, but just watch the first few. Those hits are 15 yard penalties today.

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I'm not questioning his production at all...the results speak for themselves, but the topic is comparing him vs CJ...these things always boil down to trying to make one look bad or not as good to support your pick...that's not my intent here, but imo CJ was the most well rounded WR...for nearly all of his career, he ran mostly a full route tree...Moss did not.

As a Lions fan I always liked calvin. I think he was over valued throughout his career though.

He had some huge drops and game costing plays. But he never had a competent #2 receiver until Tate showed up. He had to play with weak QBs. I would have loved to see him play with Brady in his prime.

I still would pick CJ over Moss as Moss is just a DB. And I can't root for guys like that.

I think there is a compelling argument to pick Calvin Johnson, but man I can't remember a WR more feared than Randy Moss when he was with the Patriots.

ATL96Steeler said:

I'm not questioning his production at all...the results speak for themselves, but the topic is comparing him vs CJ...these things always boil down to trying to make one look bad or not as good to support your pick...that's not my intent here, but imo CJ was the most well rounded WR...for nearly all of his career, he ran mostly a full route tree...Moss did not.

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Well said. Moss did run the route tree, but didn't run the curls/digs/comebacks heavily. But that first is such a big thing impact-wise.

I guess just the impact is what really amazes me... Jeff George and Cunningham were journeymen at that part of their careers and had career years and then some with Moss. Culpepper was astounding with Moss and sure injuries hurt him, but even before getting hurt the year Moss left, he was playing really poorly and everyone was wondering what was wrong. Brady with Moss had his best statistical season by far. Cassell with Moss had his career year. Frerotte, only a few games, but easily the best he looked in his career. Todd Bouman only 6 games with Moss, but made a career out of them (98 QB rating with moss, 61 over the rest of his career).

Just breaking this out for fun.. of the QB's to play at least 8 games with Moss vs. their careers without him (6 QB's):

Comp% up 3.6%
TD% up 2.1%
INT% down .6%
YPA up 1.1
QB rating up 19.8
Yards per Game up 62.4
Yards per completion up 1.2 yards
Sack rate down 3%
Pro football references approximate value up 9.6%
PFR's net yards per pass attempts up 2.3

That's 6 QB's over 10 volume and efficiency stats. 60 individual statistical comparisons with Moss vs. without and 57 of the 60 were increases with Moss (Collins slightly lower comp% and sack rate, Jeff George slightly higher int rate).

Some of those are insane too. Just breaking down those differences over current/recent QB's careers near the top vs. where that would be to see that drop off with names attached.

Net YPA (QB rating system that includes sacks) is Romo, Warner, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Steve Young (6.9-7.1) vs. Ponder, Geno Smith, Shane Matthews, Quincy Carter, Couch. Or the difference between Carson Palmer and Johnny Manziel last year.

QB rating difference is Tom Brady/Peyton Manning vs. Batch, Kitna, Henne.

Yards per game is Brady/Rodgers vs. Alex Smith/Grossman (or the difference between 2nd in yards per game last year for Arizona vs. 26th for Green Bay).

YPA that's Wilson/Rodgers (top 5 all time) vs. Vick (80-100 ranking all time)... Or the difference between the two Pennsylvania teams last year (Eagles and Steelers).

Comp% is Peyton Manning/Romo vs. Tannehill/Garrard.

INT rate is Brady vs. Rivers/Brees (2 vs. 20th)

TD% is Rodgers/Wilson vs. Schaub/Vick (top 10 vs. outside of top 100)


That's an interesting impact right there. I honestly am wavering myself on this when looking at Megatron not being such a prima donna. But so hard to go against an impact player like that.

VikingsAD28 said:

Moss and it's not close. Best deep threat the game has ever seen. If he had played with the QB's and coaches Rice played with his numbers would be astronomical. Calvin Johnson is great but he's not a top 5 receiver all time.

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Here's this load of bullshit again. When Young went down and he had Grbac throwing it to him he put the 49ers on his shoulders. Rice could turn a 10 yard route into a TD and before he blew his knee out nobody made up the step he got from him with his moves off the line. Moss wasn't anything if there wasn't a guy who could throw a deep ball to him. One trick pony with the greatest trick the nfl has ever seen.

31-14 Randy. Woah! I thought megatron would be woopin butt.

This thread has made me laugh like I haven't in quite some time, thank you.

There is absolutely no question the correct answer is Randy Moss.

No receiver in the history of the game has scared defensive coordinators like Randy Moss did,

After Randy's rookie season the Packers spent their first three draft picks the following year on defensive backs.

All this talk about one trick pony is complete bullshit, as someone who seem him play more than probably anyone posting here I can tell you I can't think of a route he couldn't or wouldn't run. He ran crossing patterns all the time you just don't remember because he was too fast to ever take a big hit he either caught the ball and went down to avoid the big hit or simply ran past whoever might have been covering him or closing in.

I was always a big fan of Calvin Johnson but it's ridiculous to compare him to Moss, i's about the same as comparing Reggie Wayne to Jerry Rice, sure Wayne was real good but he wasn't in the same class as Rice.

Fitz