Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson?

[Ricky Roma]

Moss and it's not close. Best deep threat the game has ever seen. If he had played with the QB's and coaches Rice played with his numbers would be astronomical. Calvin Johnson is great but he's not a top 5 receiver all time.

It would be a toss up between CJ and RM....no way is it heavily slanted in one direction, as I believe both were the best in the game during their elite years. As per Rice? Go take a look at his 1986 season when he had Montana for roughly 8 games, and Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski for the other 8.....I believe his stats for the latter were actually better than they were with the former.

It's somewhat a bogus argument when it comes to the QB the receivers are paired with. Sure a great QB is more accurate, better reading coverages, etc. etc. but a lesser QB will lean heavily on getting those top tiered receivers the ball (forcing more balls that way...more opportunities for catches as well as interceptions). The better QB would spread it around more in general. There are exceptions of course.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

It would be a toss up between CJ and RM....no way is it heavily slanted in one direction, as I believe both were the best in the game during their elite years. As per Rice? Go take a look at his 1986 season when he had Montana for roughly 8 games, and Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski for the other 8.....I believe his stats for the latter were actually better than they were with the former.

It's somewhat a bogus argument when it comes to the QB the receivers are paired with. Sure a great QB is more accurate, better reading coverages, etc. etc. but a lesser QB will lean heavily on getting those top tiered receivers the ball (forcing more balls that way...more opportunities for catches as well as interceptions). The better QB would spread it around more in general. There are exceptions of course.

Yup, to be the GOAT of course you are going to have things going your way, Jim Brown had 4 HOF linemen blocking for him for example. Rice had the QB's, the perfect scheme, etc.. But Rice did extraordinary things when the QB situation wasn't great too, enough to tell me it wasn't just the things around him.

Could make cases like that all over on the situations. Joey Galloway is a great example. What he did with the QB's throwing him the ball was pretty cool. 85% of his passes were from Quincy Carter, Mirer, Chris Simms, Brian Griese, Friesz, Kitna, Gradkowski, Hutchinson, Wright, Rattay, Leaf, Stoerner, Toretta, Foley, Old Dallas Cunningham, and Gelbaugh. Kinda the shit stick of QB's. Other 15% from 40+ year old Moon and old Aikman at the end of his career. Injuries ini his prime hurt him a bit too after a top 5 start for a WR production-wise. Came on really strong at the end. 2nd most yards/TD's by a 34-36 year old player in those three years ever with Simms/Gradkowski as his QB. Not a HOFer or even close, but in the right situation I think he would have been.

Which is why when selecting the best of the best, I choose those that did it, even if they had the better situations over those that might have. Just my thoughts there though.

 

[SonnyCID]

Moss was fortunate to spend most of his career with vet QBs who could look defenders off to dictate coverage. CJ never had that, Stafford sucks.

 

[tducey]

Moss.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Moss was fortunate to spend most of his career with vet QBs who could look defenders off to dictate coverage. CJ never had that, Stafford sucks.

Stafford is still better than most top receivers have had in their career. Stafford isn't the best guy out there but he has a rocket arm. Last year was his best year or 2nd best year (2011)... 67 comp % 4,200 yards 32 TD's 13 INT's. Guys who SUCK never put up those kind of numbers. Still Moss is was much better at virtually every facet of the game.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Yup, to be the GOAT of course you are going to have things going your way, Jim Brown had 4 HOF linemen blocking for him for example. Rice had the QB's, the perfect scheme, etc.. But Rice did extraordinary things when the QB situation wasn't great too, enough to tell me it wasn't just the things around him.

Could make cases like that all over on the situations. Joey Galloway is a great example. What he did with the QB's throwing him the ball was pretty cool. 85% of his passes were from Quincy Carter, Mirer, Chris Simms, Brian Griese, Friesz, Kitna, Gradkowski, Hutchinson, Wright, Rattay, Leaf, Stoerner, Toretta, Foley, Old Dallas Cunningham, and Gelbaugh. Kinda the shit stick of QB's. Other 15% from 40+ year old Moon and old Aikman at the end of his career. Injuries ini his prime hurt him a bit too after a top 5 start for a WR production-wise. Came on really strong at the end. 2nd most yards/TD's by a 34-36 year old player in those three years ever with Simms/Gradkowski as his QB. Not a HOFer or even close, but in the right situation I think he would have been.

Which is why when selecting the best of the best, I choose those that did it, even if they had the better situations over those that might have. Just my thoughts there though.

Yikes...

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Moss.

Great post

 

[Nosferatu]

Moss was fortunate to spend most of his career with vet QBs who could look defenders off to dictate coverage. CJ never had that, Stafford sucks.

Did you ever actually watch Moss play or just see highlights? From your response above it seems like maybe you just seen highlights, the guy beat Triple coverage more than any receiver in the history of the game.

 

[SonnyCID]

Did you ever actually watch Moss play or just see highlights? From your response above it seems like maybe you just seen highlights, the guy beat Triple coverage more than any receiver in the history of the game.

I've seen Lions fans claim the same thing about CJ.

Outside of Hail Mary situations, triple coverage is pretty much a myth, especially was during the cover-2 era.

 

[Nosferatu]

I've seen Lions fans claim the same thing about CJ.

Outside of Hail Mary situations, triple coverage is pretty much a myth, especially was during the cover-2 era.

Wow, that's sad, I watched him play in well over 100 games and it was all just in my head.

 

[eaglesnut]

Moss

The freakiest of the freaks.

 

[Clayton]

I was always a big fan of Calvin Johnson but it's ridiculous to compare him to Moss, i's about the same as comparing Reggie Wayne to Jerry Rice, sure Wayne was real good but he wasn't in the same class as Rice.

You obviously aren't a big fan of Calvin Johnson with that analogy.

 

[Nosferatu]

You obviously aren't a big fan of Calvin Johnson with that analogy.

Not true at all, I think Calvin had a chance to be top three all time but he didn't quite live up to the hype, he had a couple great seasons but he didn't come even close to what I thought he might do when entering the league.

 

[Clayton]

Not true at all, I think Calvin had a chance to be top three all time but he didn't quite live up to the hype, he had a couple great seasons but he didn't come even close to what I thought he might do when entering the league.

Yeah, but Reggie Wayne? A guy who got to play with Peyton in his prime and never came close to being as good as Calvin? Thats just absurd. Johnson was getting 16 yards a catch during his career.

Johnson basically only had 3 great seasons but they were arguably the greatest WR seasons ever in a small stretch.

 

[Howie115]

Calvin Johnson did not have the QBs that Moss had. Randy's best seasons came in Daunte Culpepper's prime years and later with Tom Brady throwing to him. His two years in Oakland with crummy QBs were not good.

I give you Calvin's 2008 season...when the team went through FIVE crummy QBs and the Lions went 0-16... he still caught 78 passes for 1331 yards and 12 TDs.

 

[Nosferatu]

Yeah, but Reggie Wayne? A guy who got to play with Peyton in his prime and never came close to being as good as Calvin? Thats just absurd. Johnson was getting 16 yards a catch during his career.

Johnson basically only had 3 great seasons but they were arguably the greatest WR seasons ever in a small stretch.

What else is absurd is saying Calvin was better than Randy. I will take Randy's first three years over anything Calvin did.

 

[Clayton]

What else is absurd is saying Calvin was better than Randy. I will take Randy's first three years over anything Calvin did.

I'd disagree but I wouldn't say its absurd. Not nearly as much as saying the gap is as big as Reggie Wayne to Jerry Rice.

 

[Nosferatu]

I'd disagree but I wouldn't say its absurd. Not nearly as much as saying the gap is as big as Reggie Wayne to Jerry Rice.

Just making a point Clayton, I am and have always been a fan of Calvin but the comparison is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[Clayton]

Just making a point Clayton, I am and have always been a fan of Calvin but the comparison is ridiculous in my opinion.

Unfortunately more than probably any other position in football the WR is totally dependent on QB, coaching, a running game and the teams and era it plays in.

The reality is that we can never know these things but Moss was the first WR I picked when doing my all time team in the NFL thread just for his deep threat abilities. I've seen him do some silly things and he was part of some of the best passing attacks the NFL has ever seen.

The true greats are talented enough to really manipulate the other side of the passing game. Deion Sanders, Night Train Lane in his era, Randy Moss certainly in his.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Yeah, but Reggie Wayne? A guy who got to play with Peyton in his prime and never came close to being as good as Calvin? Thats just absurd. Johnson was getting 16 yards a catch during his career.

Johnson basically only had 3 great seasons but they were arguably the greatest WR seasons ever in a small stretch.

No one is saying Calvin isn't great, probably top 5 but there are many factors as to why he isn't the greater of the two. Moss had over 1300 yards and 10+ TD's in 5 seasons. Shit, 100 receptions, 1500 yards and 23 TD's, that was one season. He was a TD machine and the best deep threat in the history of the game hands down.