Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson?

[RP-29]

I see this debate like the Wayne Gretzky versus Gordie Howe 'GOAT' debate. The people who love Gretzky love the undeniable offensive production/numbers and that's all it takes. The people who love Gordie love that he was a force in all situations.

 

[Howie115]

No one is saying Calvin isn't great, probably top 5 but there are many factors as to why he isn't the greater of the two. Moss had over 1300 yards and 10+ TD's in 5 seasons. Shit, 100 receptions, 1500 yards and 23 TD's, that was one season. He was a TD machine and the best deep threat in the history of the game hands down.

Moss had 156 TDs in 218 games played (1.4 TD per game). 15.6 yards per reception.

Calvin had 83 TDs in 135 games played (1.6 TD per game). 15.9 yards per reception.

Longevity favors Moss. But other than that, I don't see where there is this huge gap everyone claims.

 

[Howie115]

I see this debate like the Wayne Gretzky versus Gordie Howe 'GOAT' debate. The people who love Gretzky love the undeniable offensive production/numbers and that's all it takes. The people who love Gordie love that he was a force in all situations.

Very similar debate.

I've always liked settling on: Gretzky was the greatest SCORER, Howe was the greatest all-around PLAYER.

 

[Clayton]

Moss had 156 TDs in 218 games played (1.4 TD per game). 15.6 yards per reception.

Calvin had 83 TDs in 135 games played (1.6 TD per game). 15.9 yards per reception.

Longevity favors Moss. But other than that, I don't see where there is this huge gap everyone claims.

Randy Moss double digit TD seasons: 23, 17, 17, 15, 13, 13, 11, 11, 10
Calvin Johnson double digit TD seasons: 16, 12, 12, 12

Moss has 6 of the top 7 scoring seasons

 

[Howie115]

What else is absurd is saying Calvin was better than Randy. I will take Randy's first three years over anything Calvin did.

Calvin's quarterbacks his first three seasons (2007-09): Jon Kitna, J.T. O'Sullivan, Dan Orlovsky, Drew Henson, Drew Stanton, Daunte Culpepper (past his prime), Patrick Ramsey, Matthew Stafford (2009 rookie season). Lions teams went 7-9, 0-16, 2-14.

Minnesota went 15-1, 10-6 and 11-5 in Moss's first three seasons. QBs were Randall Cunningham, Brad Johnson and Daunte in his prime. Yes, Moss had something to do with that. But the supporting cast HEAVILY favors Moss. Thus, it's a bit apples & oranges.

I can agree Moss was better than Calvin, especially considering length of career. I just don't agree with assertions that comparing the two is "ridiculous" or "absurd".

 

[Rock Strongo]

moss. easy.

 

[RP-29]

Randy Moss double digit TD seasons: 23, 17, 17, 15, 13, 13, 11, 11, 10
Calvin Johnson double digit TD seasons: 16, 12, 12, 12

Moss has 6 of the top 7 scoring seasons

For all of that great offensive production, Moss also sulked when he didn't get the ball, had to block or be a decoy. He often did a half-assed job doing anything except running a deep route as play option #1. He was considered to be a locker room cancer for much of his career.

Calvin was a force in his own right. He didn't have Moss's ceiling or longevity, but also had none of those negative attributes Moss had either, which I believe makes the two players much more even than numbers suggest.

If I'm a general manager building a franchise for extended championship contention and I've gotta choose between Moss or Calvin as my top wide out, I likely choose Calvin because he's going to be a more valuable team guy and will help do all the little things necessary to succeed as a team. If my top objective is to sell tickets, I take Moss. If I'm building a team for Madden I take Moss.

Another hockey analogy: Toews or Ovechkin. Ovechkin has the gaudy offensive production, but Toews has his name on the Cup three times.

 

[Nosferatu]

Calvin's quarterbacks his first three seasons (2007-09): Jon Kitna, J.T. O'Sullivan, Dan Orlovsky, Drew Henson, Drew Stanton, Daunte Culpepper (past his prime), Patrick Ramsey, Matthew Stafford (2009 rookie season). Lions teams went 7-9, 0-16, 2-14.

Minnesota went 15-1, 10-6 and 11-5 in Moss's first three seasons. QBs were Randall Cunningham, Brad Johnson and Daunte in his prime. Yes, Moss had something to do with that. But the supporting cast HEAVILY favors Moss. Thus, it's a bit apples & oranges.

I can agree Moss was better than Calvin, especially considering length of career. I just don't agree with assertions that comparing the two is "ridiculous" or "absurd".

Culpepper never had a prime, he had Randy Moss years then after Randy left after the 2004 season he never threw more than 6 TD's in a season. Randall Cunningham had the best season of his career in 1998. Brad Johnson? Really?

Facts are the 1997 Vikings went 9 - 7 and scored 354 points the following season 1998 the Vikes went 15 - 1 and scored 556 points

What changed in that one season? Still had Denny Green, still had Brad Johnson & Randall Cunningham, still had Robert Smith, still had Cris Carter & Jake Reed. The one change was Randy Moss, that's the kind of impact this guy had. It wasn't that he had better QB's it was he made the QB's better.

 

[Clayton]

If I'm a general manager building a franchise for extended championship contention and I've gotta choose between Moss or Calvin as my top wide out, I likely choose Calvin because he's going to be a more valuable team guy and will help do all the little things necessary to succeed as a team. If my top objective is to sell tickets, I take Moss. If I'm building a team for Madden I take Moss.

Another hockey analogy: Toews or Ovechkin. Ovechkin has the gaudy offensive production, but Toews has his name on the Cup three times.

Eh, they both have their downsides. A prime Calvin Johnson could make the Lions a playoff team next year. He probably walked away because he lost a step. Thats not a guy you build a championship team around.

 

[Nosferatu]

For all of that great offensive production, Moss also sulked when he didn't get the ball, had to block or be a decoy. He often did a half-assed job doing anything except running a deep route as play option #1. He was considered to be a locker room cancer for much of his career.

Calvin was a force in his own right. He didn't have Moss's ceiling or longevity, but also had none of those negative attributes Moss had either, which I believe makes the two players much more even than numbers suggest.

If I'm a general manager building a franchise for extended championship contention and I've gotta choose between Moss or Calvin as my top wide out, I likely choose Calvin because he's going to be a more valuable team guy and will help do all the little things necessary to succeed as a team. If my top objective is to sell tickets, I take Moss. If I'm building a team for Madden I take Moss.

Another hockey analogy: Toews or Ovechkin. Ovechkin has the gaudy offensive production, but Toews has his name on the Cup three times.

And this is the kind of thinking that makes a losing team. What positive impact did Calvin ever have on his team? Nine seasons and two playoff games, yeah nice job. Randy Moss played in more playoff games his rookie season. Moss had more impact on a team than just about any player in the history of the game.

 

[Howie115]

Brad Johnson? Really?

Brad Johnson was better than any QB Calvin had in his first 3 seasons. That includes Stafford's rookie year, when he was atrocious.

 

[Nosferatu]

Brad Johnson was better than any QB Calvin had in his first 3 seasons. That includes Stafford's rookie year, when he was atrocious.

Let's just chalk this one up to you didn't have anything else to come back with.

 

[Howie115]

still had Robert Smith, still had Cris Carter & Jake Reed.

...all better than any of Calvin's supporting cast.

 

[Clayton]

...all better than any of Calvin's supporting cast.

Calvin walked away from a borderline franchise QB this year, though. Golden Tate is also a solid #2 option. Lions schedule probably isnt that hard. Defense likely in the top half of the league.

 

[Howie115]

Let's just chalk this one up to you didn't have anything else to come back with.

Let's chalk it up to you being hugely biased.

I am a Lions fan and admit Moss was a bit better. However, I've provided career numbers and context to show, apples to apples, that the gap between the two isn't as cavernous as you make it out to be.

 

[Howie115]

Calvin walked away from a borderline franchise QB this year, though. Golden Tate is also a solid #2 option. Lions schedule probably isnt that hard. Defense likely in the top half of the league.

I was talking more early in Calvin's career. The supporting cast did get better with time. That said, I think Stafford has been Top 15 in QB ratings only twice in his career.

 

[Nosferatu]

Let's chalk it up to you being hugely biased.

I am a Lions fan and admit Moss was a bit better. However, I've provided career numbers and context to show, apples to apples, that the gap between the two isn't as cavernous as you make it out to be.

I was a big Calvin fan all the way back to Georgia Tech, was hoping I was on the verge of seeing the best receiver of all time, it just never happened. The gap might not be as "cavernous" as I think but it's bigger than you think it is.

 

[Howie115]

The gap might not be as "cavernous" as I think but it's bigger than you think it is.

Will agree to disagree.

 

[Nosferatu]

Will agree to disagree.