Which team has the brighter future? The Vikings or the Packers

[packerzrule]

I'm not sure that I agree with that. The aforementioned Patriots teams had both. Before that, the late 90s Broncos had a dominant offense and opportunistic defense, but their offense was led by their running game, not the qb. The Cowboys of the 90s had a top 5 offense and defense.

I'd say if you want to repeat, you better be a pretty well rounded team.

fair enough

 

[PDay8810]

repeating is harder and no question the best chance is with an elite QB. Least that's been done while an elite defense hasn't.

oh and yes...it should go without saying elite both or "well rounded" greatens the opportunity

 

[Broncos6482]

repeating is harder and no question the best chance is with an elite QB. Least that's been done while an elite defense hasn't.

oh and yes...it should go without saying elite both or "well rounded" greatens the opportunity

The Patriots had the number 1 defense in 2003 and the number 2 defense in 2004. However, their passing offense was only 9th in 2003 and 11th in 2004. I'd say they repeated with an elite defense.

 

[megalodon30]

However, their passing offense was only 9th in 2003 and 11th in 2004.

Tom Brady sucks.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

The Patriots had the number 1 defense in 2003 and the number 2 defense in 2004. However, their passing offense was only 9th in 2003 and 11th in 2004. I'd say they repeated with an elite defense.

Adam Vinatieri wont be one of the very few kickers in the Hall of Fame, because Tom Brady was so great

 

[Across The Field]

Green Bay. They're one of the most well-run teams in all of professional sports. Until proven otherwise, their future will always be bright.

Minnesota, on the other hand, is young and talented but unproven. I'm not sold on Bridgewater. Hell, I can't even say I'm sure he'll have a better career than Hundley will when Rodgers hangs them up.

 

[bt08]

Vikes are putting together a solid team but Bridgewater has to step up his game big time if they want to have a brighter future than GB

 

[Stomp]

The OL that was graded in the top 10 last year even with all the injuries?

Yeah the offensive line that got Rodgers sacked 46 times and didn't do much for the run game either. Not sure who ranked them in the top 10 but you should probably use someone else for grades.

 

[Trudem]

Yeah the offensive line that got Rodgers sacked 46 times and didn't do much for the run game either. Not sure who ranked them in the top 10 but you should probably use someone else for grades.

That would be PFF...

Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines this season | PFF

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

That would be PFF...

Ranking all 32 NFL offensive lines this season | PFF

Seattle ranked out at 30. Better then I thought.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Seattle ranked out at 30. Better then I thought.

Love the break down of the Seahawks OL, so correct.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Yeah the offensive line that got Rodgers sacked 46 times and didn't do much for the run game either. Not sure who ranked them in the top 10 but you should probably use someone else for grades.

Well sacks are largely related to the QB. There are some outliers, but its rare a QB's sack rate changes much. Rodgers sacked on 7.0% of his drop-backs for his career, sacked 7.4% of the time last year. 1 more sack per 250 pass attempts off of his average. Rodgers has always tried to extend plays a bit more with his legs, which has a great upside (gets guys wide open downfield, we've seen that a hundred times for huge plays), but at times he gets caught... Where a guy like Peyton will just immediately dump off for the 4 yard gain to a check down. No risk, but no huge reward either. Look at old favre... 2.7% sack rate his last year in GB, then up to 6% with Rodgers that first year. Same exact line both years, Clifton, Colledge, Wells, Spitz and Tauscher but the sack rate over doubled.

Sacks are a poor way to rate offensive lines..

 

[Stomp]

Sacks are a poor way to rate offensive lines..

As is grading a bunch of offensive lineman individually then adding up their score to rank them as a whole. Advanced statistics are very subjective FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2015 OFFENSIVE LINES has them 25th in run blocking and 23rd in pass protection. I watched 5 or 6 Packers game last season and the line looked like swiss cheese. As far as Rodgers career sack rate goes the offensive line has been ignored since he took over he's been sacked 306 times in 119 starts an unprecedented rate.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

As is grading a bunch of offensive lineman individually then adding up their score to rank them as a whole. Advanced statistics are very subjective FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2015 OFFENSIVE LINES has them 25th in run blocking and 23rd in pass protection. I watched 5 or 6 Packers game last season and the line looked like swiss cheese. As far as Rodgers career sack rate goes the offensive line has been ignored since he took over he's been sacked 306 times in 119 starts an unprecedented rate.

I wasn't using another calculation for that. Just saying sacks is a crappy way. Looking at your source, they only basically use sack rate (they throw in intentional grounding, but that averaged 2 per team per year, so a very minor change). That's a crappy way if you ask me.

Want some fun, use them for judging offensive lines and check out NE in 07, 08, 09.

07... 4th
08... 26th
09... 2nd.

Why that insane jump one year? What changed for NE in 2008? Not Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, and Kaczur. Only change was rookie Vollmer for Light in 09. The QB changed. And that O-line went completely with it.

Take a look at outsiders for Indy from 97 to 2011.

97.. DEAD LAST
98.. 1st.
98-09 1st to 5th (1st overall in that time)
10 1st
11 18th!

Why? Was it Tony Mandarich's great play? Steve McKinney a rookie guard was their only change on that line... no. A rookie with a really quick read and release who never tried to extend plays with his legs named Peyton. That line stays at the top every year until... 2011... When that same QB had a neck surgery and missed the year.

Then in 2012, guess who the "most improved" line according to football outsiders was? Denver going from 29th to 2nd... that same QB showed up again.




Saints go from 18 to 4 by adding Brees.

Jets go from 25th with Geno to 3rd with Fitzpatrick last year

Atlanta 31st with Vick, 4th 2 years later with Ryan.

Oaklands another
26th in 2010 (fans say line sucks)
5th in 2011 (got Carson)
4th in 2012 (still Carson, fans claiming line is fixed)
28th in 2013 (ahhh sky falling with a new running QB)
3rd in 2014 (added a rookie pocket QB in Carr)

Or the one thing Nick Foles does well, getting the ball out before pressure arrives..

2014 in Philly 1st (9th overall only because Sanchez sacked 250% more often)
2015 out of Philly 23rd

2014 Rams 23rd
2015 Rams 1st with Foles.

Or Titans with Young 3rd before his rookie year, 3rd his 3rd year when he missed almost the entire season, middle of the pack inbetween.

Or Marino. He took over as the starter, and poof, that line gave up the lowest sack rate nearly every year through 1999... Complete turnovers with that offensive line multiple times while he was starting, always elite pass blocking sack rate. Until 2000 when they fell to 14th with a more athletic QB taking his spot.






And not sure what you mean by an "unprecedented" rate. His average since being named starter is about 6.9% of the time vs. the NFL average of around 6.4%. About where you'd expect for a more mobile than average QB. The line did look rough at times, but there was lots of man coverage and blitzes too, which I think you can put on WR's not getting open. It seemed before last year he just ate up blitzes... not so much last season.

Look at QB's as they move about, and sack rate really follows them well. There are exceptions at times, but you can pretty much guarantee that if you get a QB who wants to extend plays with his legs, fans will complain that his line gives up too many sacks and blame the line. And it's amazing because it does always seem like it just tightens up with a pocket guy. Maybe it's the line knowing they only have to block a spot 4 yards behind center, or not having to worry about extending their blocks that just makes it look easier.


It's one thing I really do believe in, you want sack rate to rise, find a QB that uses his legs to extend plays. It's not a bad thing, you get a reward with it, but very few buck that trend.. McNair would be one of them.

NFL Active Sacked % Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

That's active sack rates... It isn't perfect, but if you were going to rank those guys from pocket to using legs to extend plays, that's pretty close to how you'd have them, irrespective of their lines right? You could say Ben isn't really doing that much more... but then that sack rate for him lately is 5.6% putting him in that 15 or so spot.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

Green Bay because they have Aaron Rodgers

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

Love the break down of the Seahawks OL, so correct.

So true Harold. I look at it as a break down of horrors.

 

[VikingsAD28]

Would anyone like to reconsider???

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Would anyone like to reconsider???

No.

 

[SonnyCID]

Too bad they don't have 1/4 season trophies.

 

[VikingsAD28]

Too bad they don't have 1/4 season trophies.

So you think this is an aberration? They did that to 3 of the best offenses and QB's on their schedule. So tell me why they won't keep it up? Injuries are the only thing that could cause a big dropoff.