What is LeBron's legacy if he loses 5 times in the finals?

[WiggyRuss]

Smart NBA Fans will remember that this guy did that Kobe, Michael and no one else would have done

Thats take an awful Cavaliers team to a finals, with Delonte West as his second best player

And hang with GS last season after Kyrie and Love went down, with Matthew Delavadova taking 15 shots a game

that Detroit series was just unbelievable. Game 5 against Detroit was one of the most ridiculous performances i have ever seen in any sport. You just couldn't even believe that he kept doing it over and over and Detroits vaunted defense at the time could do nothing to stop him.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

that Detroit series was just unbelievable. Game 5 against Detroit was one of the most ridiculous performances i have ever seen in any sport. You just couldn't even believe that he kept doing it over and over and Detroits vaunted defense at the time could do nothing to stop him.

It was similar to his game 6 vs Celts here IMO.
Different stage of his career, obviously, but both games he basically could have won by himself.

 

[WiggyRuss]

It was similar to his game 6 vs Celts here IMO.
Different stage of his career, obviously, but both games he basically could have won by himself.

that Boston game 6 was another biggie for sure.

 

[Kold]

I don't know who drudged this back up, but I do want to talk about something relating to this...and that is that we really have to be careful about the way we give Lebron so many passes for these Finals losses. Like, we can't just go back and say "well if this or that wasn't the case, Lebron would of won", so therefore this shouldn't go on his legacy. If you go through history, there are a whole bunch of cases like that, but we don't tend to make excuses for said teams or stars, as opposed to looking back on history and saying this person's Finals record is this or that...

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't know who drudged this back up, but I do want to talk about something relating to this...and that is that we really have to be careful about the way we give Lebron so many passes for these Finals losses. Like, we can't just go back and say "well if this or that wasn't the case, Lebron would of won", so therefore this shouldn't go on his legacy. If you go through history, there are a whole bunch of cases like that, but we don't tend to make excuses for said teams or stars, as opposed to looking back on history and saying this person's Finals record is this or that...

Exactly. It's like the "If he wins one in Cleveland, he gets more credit because it's Cleveland and they've never won anything" nonsense.

MJ doesn't get extra credit for Chicago having nothing but the '85 Bears when the Bulls started winning titles. No one says that the finals loss to Detroit shouldn't count against Magic even though Byron Scott missed the whole series and Magic only played in Game 1. No one gives him extra credit for dragging a Lakers team that wasn't even the best team in the Western Conference to the finals in what became MJ's first title. Kobe's doesn't get a pass on his 2 finals losses because Karl Malone was injured in 1 and Bynum in the other.

At the end of his career, Lebron's finals record will be what it is. No "passes" for his finals losses and no "extra credit" if he happens to win one in Cleveland.

 

[gordontrue]

Exactly. It's like the "If he wins one in Cleveland, he gets more credit because it's Cleveland and they've never won anything" nonsense.

MJ doesn't get extra credit for Chicago having nothing but the '85 Bears when the Bulls started winning titles. No one says that the finals loss to Detroit shouldn't count against Magic even though Byron Scott missed the whole series and Magic only played in Game 1. Kobe's doesn't get a pass on his 2 finals losses because Karl Malone was injured in 1 and Bynum in the other.

At the end of his career, Lebron's finals record will be what it is. No "passes" for his finals losses and no "extra credit" if he happens to win one in Cleveland.

Yeah, that all makes sense, but no one talks about Finals record with anyone except Jordan and LeBron. With Jordan it makes sense because he was 6-6 so its a natural talking point.

Sure, no one makes excuses for Magic's finals losses... but they really don't talk about his Finals losses at all. He is accepted as an all-time great and is thought of in the context of his championships and accomplishments. You never hear Jerry West's final losses brought up unless its in the context of talking about LeBron.

Finals record, Finals losses was never a thing until now. Its always been about winning a championship not how close you are to a championship when you fail.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yeah, that all makes sense, but no one talks about Finals record with anyone except Jordan and LeBron.

Sure, no one makes excuses for Magic's finals losses... but they really don't talk about his Finals losses at all. He is accepted as an all-time great and is thought of in the context of his championships and accomplishments. You never hear Jerry West's final losses brought up unless its in the context of talking about Jordan / LeBron.

Finals record, Finals losses was never a thing until now. Its always been about winning a championship not how close you are to a championship when you fail.

Not true. His finals losses and the fact that he has 1 fewer ring is why MJ is ranked ahead of Magic. Kareem has the same number of rings as MJ, but isn't ranked even with or higher because he has 4 losses. One of the main reasons MJ is ranked ahead of everyone is he's 6-0 in the finals.

Jerry West's finals losses don't get brought up because he isn't in the conversation for GOAT.

Finals records/losses have been brought up since MJ retired the first time.

Also, there are 2 reasons that Lebron's losses get mentioned. One, is because he is the only player in the GOAT conversation with a losing record in the finals. The other is because people keep trying to give him passes for having a losing record in the finals.

 

[hockey878]

Finals losses is the dumbest thing ever. It suggests losing in the finals is somehow worse than losing early in the playoffs.

I'm not a fan of the context-less "ringz" argument in general.

But if you are going to use that argument just stick to how many they won. If player A wins 6 rings in 12 tries that is the same as player B winning 6 in 6. The notion that somehow player B is better because he didn't make the finals with a team that didn't have quite enough, and therefore avoids a loss on his finals record, is garbage.

 

[gordontrue]

Not true. His finals losses and the fact that he has 1 fewer ring is why MJ is ranked ahead of Magic. Kareem has the same number of rings as MJ, but isn't ranked even with or higher because he has 4 losses. One of the main reasons MJ is ranked ahead of everyone is he's 6-0 in the finals.

Jerry West's finals losses don't get brought up because he isn't in the conversation for GOAT.

Finals records/losses have been brought up since MJ retired the first time.

Also, there are 2 reasons that Lebron's losses get mentioned. One, is because he is the only player in the GOAT conversation with a losing record in the finals. The other is because people keep trying to give him passes for having a losing record in the finals.

I can see that when you get into conversations comparing the greats to each other. You'll never see me arguing that LeBron should be considered on Jordan's level.

Btu I feel like I hear about it more generally in terms of his legacy and how LeBron will be remembered, though. Literally none of the greats have their legacy defined by Finals losses... even the ones with as many losses has LeBron. Except for maybe the Malone's, Stocktons, & Barkleys of the world who never won any rings.

Again... the obsession with Finals records and Finals losses could not make any less sense to me. You say that's because I'm a fan of LeBron, but I say its because I'm a fan of logic and things that make sense. If you fail to win the title you fail to win the title. Whether you fail by not getting to the playoffs, or by losing in the 1st round, or by losing in the Finals. Its just so nonsensical to value losing in the Finals below losing at any other point in the season.

 

[gordontrue]

Finals losses is the dumbest thing ever. It suggests losing in the finals is somehow worse than losing early in the playoffs.

I'm not a fan of the context-less "ringz" argument in general.

But if you are going to use that argument just stick to how many they won. If player A wins 6 rings in 12 tries that is the same as player B winning 6 in 6. The notion that somehow player B is better because he didn't make the finals with a team that didn't have quite enough, and therefore avoids a loss on his finals record, is garbage.

Tell me that LeBron < Jordan because he has 2 titles to his 6 titles.

Not because he has 4 Finals losses to Jordan's 0 Finals losses.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Exactly. It's like the "If he wins one in Cleveland, he gets more credit because it's Cleveland and they've never won anything" nonsense.

MJ doesn't get extra credit for Chicago having nothing but the '85 Bears when the Bulls started winning titles. No one says that the finals loss to Detroit shouldn't count against Magic even though Byron Scott missed the whole series and Magic only played in Game 1. No one gives him extra credit for dragging a Lakers team that wasn't even the best team in the Western Conference to the finals in what became MJ's first title. Kobe's doesn't get a pass on his 2 finals losses because Karl Malone was injured in 1 and Bynum in the other.

At the end of his career, Lebron's finals record will be what it is. No "passes" for his finals losses and no "extra credit" if he happens to win one in Cleveland.

I dont think so.....I think its more if he won in Cleveland with awful surrounding casts (im excluding this season with a healthy Love and Irving), that would have been more impressive than what MJ or Kobe did, winning titles surrounded by Hall of Famer

 

[WiggyRuss]

Yeah, that all makes sense, but no one talks about Finals record with anyone except Jordan and LeBron. With Jordan it makes sense because he was 6-6 so its a natural talking point.

Sure, no one makes excuses for Magic's finals losses... but they really don't talk about his Finals losses at all. He is accepted as an all-time great and is thought of in the context of his championships and accomplishments. You never hear Jerry West's final losses brought up unless its in the context of talking about LeBron.

Finals record, Finals losses was never a thing until now. Its always been about winning a championship not how close you are to a championship when you fail.

very true. If anything LeBron is a victim of his own dominance in this way- along with the jealousy/hate he inspires.

And LeBron getting it done in Cleveland WOULD be significant. the National guys on TNT have talked about it ad nauseuem...EVERY TIME a Cleveland team gets close- its not the Cleveland press that brings up the cities championship-less streak- its ESPN or the National media etc....For LeBron to not only bring a championship to his hometown- but to overcome the "Only in Cleveland" mentality, and to finally win one after The Drive, The Shot, The Fumble, The Decision, Jose Mesa in the 9th, etc. would be just amazing and would mean more than a championship any other place no doubt about it.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I dont think so.....I think its more if he won in Cleveland with awful surrounding casts (im excluding this season with a healthy Love and Irving), that would have been more impressive than what MJ or Kobe did, winning titles surrounded by Hall of Famer

of course it is...

getting one in Cleveland after coming back and overcoming all the history and stigma and national coverage is worth significantly more than title 67 for the Celtics would be or whatever.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Tell me that LeBron < Jordan because he has 2 titles to his 6 titles.

Not because he has 4 Finals losses to Jordan's 0 Finals losses.

i think their is a certain mystique that comes with winning 6 out of 6 Finals....but ill tell ya- i realize LeBron is not getting to 7 titles...but if he finished his career 7 for 14 in Finals hes above Jordan no doubt. Those losses at that point wouldnt mean anything.

 

[tlance]

Tell me that LeBron < Jordan because he has 2 titles to his 6 titles.

Not because he has 4 Finals losses to Jordan's 0 Finals losses.

Even the ring comparison would be a flawed argument, because it fails to consider the quality of the roster around each player and the quality of the competition. Championships won are only part of the equation, an important part for sure, but not the end all be all so many make them out to be.

 

[Kold]

My thing is in the past however many years, I've never really seen such a rush to defense to degrade a loss, or losses in general, by any other top tier, mega star outside of Lebron

 

[ChrisGar15]

My thing is in the past however many years, I've never really seen such a rush to defense to degrade a loss, or losses in general, by any other top tier, mega star outside of Lebron

Let's say MJ had made the NBA finals 3 times ... let's say from 1988-1990 ... and lost. (instead of losing earlier in the playoffs)

Would we think less of MJ if his finals record was 6-3 ? (I don't think we should.)

 

[tlance]

Let's say MJ had made the NBA finals 3 times ... let's say from 1988-1990 ... and lost. (instead of losing earlier in the playoffs)

Would we think less of MJ if his finals record was 6-3 ? (I don't think we should.)

That would only improve his resume.

 

[trojanfan12]

Btu I feel like I hear about it more generally in terms of his legacy and how LeBron will be remembered, though. Literally none of the greats have their legacy defined by Finals losses... even the ones with as many losses has LeBron.

Their legacies don't get defined by finals losses because they have winning records in the finals. The exception is Jerry West because his came back when the NBA was basically little more than a barnstorming league and he's the logo (and that has become what most people see as his legacy).

Do you honestly think that if MJ were 2-4 in the finals like Lebron or Kobe was 2-5 in the finals that no one would be talking about it? That it wouldn't be seen as a big part of their legacy?

 

[trojanfan12]

I dont think so.....I think its more if he won in Cleveland with awful surrounding casts (im excluding this season with a healthy Love and Irving), that would have been more impressive than what MJ or Kobe did, winning titles surrounded by Hall of Famer

If my Aunt had a penis, she'd be my Uncle. Lebron didn't win a title in Cleveland with an awful surrounding cast and if he does win one in Cleveland, it won't be with an awful supporting cast. So what's your point?