What is LeBron's legacy if he loses 5 times in the finals?

[Wamu]

That was payback for the Celtics cheating their way to 9 championships at the Lakers expense.

Dammit!

 

[tlance]

@trojanfan12

You are stating that the reason Jordan is the GOAT is because of his Finals record. That is not true. It is part of the equation, but there is a lot more in play. I believe Jordan is the greatest because he was the best wing player on both sides of the ball for a span of about 10 years. He dominated his peers in route to 6 titles that easily could have been 8+ had he not retired after winning titles on multiple occasions.

Yes, his Finals record is impressive, but it is not the fact that he went 6-0. It is the fact that nobody beat him in an 8 year span (I don't count his return season from baseball). If the Bulls had beaten the Pistons and then lost to he Lakers in the Finals before his run started, it would have absolutely zero impact on his legacy. To state otherwise is naive.

LeBron has been the best player in the league over the last 7-8 years (not anymore), but it has not translated into championships, therefor he is well behind Jordan. If LeBron manages to win 2-4 more titles as his team's best player before he retires, the Finals losses will be irrelevant. If he does not get any more, he will go down as the best player of his generation, but will likely fall short of top 5 status all time.

 

[trojanfan12]

@trojanfan12

You are stating that the reason Jordan is the GOAT is because of his Finals record. That is not true. It is part of the equation, but there is a lot more in play. I believe Jordan is the greatest because he was the best wing player on both sides of the ball for a span of about 10 years. He dominated his peers in route to 6 titles that easily could have been 8+ had he not retired after winning titles on multiple occasions.

Yes, his Finals record is impressive, but it is not the fact that he went 6-0. It is the fact that nobody beat him in an 8 year span (I don't count his return season from baseball). If the Bulls had beaten the Pistons and then lost to he Lakers in the Finals before his run started, it would have absolutely zero impact on his legacy. To state otherwise is naive.

LeBron has been the best player in the league over the last 7-8 years (not anymore), but it has not translated into championships, therefor he is well behind Jordan. If LeBron manages to win 2-4 more titles as his team's best player before he retires, the Finals losses will be irrelevant. If he does not get any more, he will go down as the best player of his generation, but will likely fall short of top 5 status all time.

It is the fact that he's 6-0. Do you actually think you are more qualified than the all-time greats who use that very reasoning as to why he's the GOAT?

Kareem also dominated his peers and won 6 titles. He dominated them for longer than MJ did. Wilt dominated his peers like no one in the history of the game. Wilt had a 100 point game and had a season where he averaged 50 points per game. The NBA actually changed rules to slow him down. Yet, he doesn't even get mentioned in GOAT conversations because he only won 2 titles. In fact, Wilt is usually ranked lower than Bill Russell because even though Wilt dominated him statistically, Russell's teams always won the games.

And I love these "if Lebron does this or if Lebron does that, then..." arguments. Guess what? If Lebron got a sex change operation, he'd be the most dominant player in the history of the WNBA. How about Lebron actually wins those 2-4 more titles before we start placing him in the conversation as if he already did?

Additionally, if he does win 2-4 more titles, MJ will still be 6-0 and Lebron will be where Kareem is in those discussions...close, but not quite there.

As of now, Lebron is the Wilt Chamberlain of this era. The hands down best player of his era, but comes up short because of his losing record in the finals.

 

[tlance]

It is the fact that he's 6-0. Do you actually think you are more qualified than the all-time greats who use that very reasoning as to why he's the GOAT?

Kareem also dominated his peers and won 6 titles. He dominated them for longer than MJ did. Wilt dominated his peers like no one in the history of the game. Wilt had a 100 point game and had a season where he averaged 50 points per game. The NBA actually changed rules to slow him down. Yet, he doesn't even get mentioned in GOAT conversations because he only won 2 titles. In fact, Wilt is usually ranked lower than Bill Russell because even though Wilt dominated him statistically, Russell's teams always won the games.

And I love these "if Lebron does this or if Lebron does that, then..." arguments. Guess what? If Lebron got a sex change operation, he'd be the most dominant player in the history of the WNBA. How about Lebron actually wins those 2-4 more titles before we start placing him in the conversation as if he already did?

Additionally, if he does win 2-4 more titles, MJ will still be 6-0 and Lebron will be where Kareem is in those discussions...close, but not quite there.

As of now, Lebron is the Wilt Chamberlain of this era. The hands down best player of his era, but comes up short because of his losing record in the finals.

am I more qualified to have an opinion than an all one great? No, but just because a player is great does not make his opinion fact. Magic and Barkley have said some pretty ridiculous things.

Also, you may very well be taking quotes out of context. Have you ever heard an all time great say that Jordan's legacy would have been tarnished with a Finals loss before his run of 6 titles? The 6-0 record is so impressive because of the span of dominance over a length of time. It is not the simple fact that he was 6-0. Had those 6 wins been staggered over 20 years like Duncan's 5, they would not have been quite so impressive, even without ever losing on the biggest stage.

 

[Flauge]

Trojan.. this all time greats agreeing with you is something you are just making up. You are claiming all the all time greats agree with your line of thinking. Offering no proof.. just something you have convinced yourself of. To me Jordan is the GOAT... but it's not because of just 6-0. Your reasoning is way to simplistic. It is the 6 final mvps, the scoring titles, all those league MVPs. Finals record alone as you are saying make Bill Russell the GOAT. Yet, most fans/ all time greats don't agree with that.

 

[starbigd]

The ONLY people that will think less of Lebron are people with an agenda.

NOBODY thinks less of Magic for losing in the finals. The fact he has rings is good enough.

People debate this because they are looking for an excuse to denigrate Lebron, plain and simple. I'm not a Lebron fan, but I'm not a hater either.

 

[trojanfan12]

Also, you may very well be taking quotes out of context. Have you ever heard an all time great say that Jordan's legacy would have been tarnished with a Finals loss before his run of 6 titles?

I haven't see that question asked. However, they all say it comes down to the rings and him being unbeaten in the finals. Thus, it implies that he would be graded lower if he had lost in the finals as each of them did. So yes, if lost in the finals, it would diminish him because the aura of invincibility would be gone. Also, no quotes are taken out of context.

You say that you aren't more qualified than the all-time greats, but then point out they've said stupid stuff. So what? It doesn't mean they are saying stupid stuff when they all say the same thing for the same reason. In this case, that MJ is the GOAT because he's 6-0 in the finals.

You can try and claim whatever you want re: their legacies, just know that the guys who's legacies are actually on the line and who actually did all of those things to have a legacy, disagree with you.

 

[tlance]

I haven't see that question asked. However, they all say it comes down to the rings and him being unbeaten in the finals. Thus, it implies that he would be graded lower if he had lost in the finals as each of them did. So yes, if lost in the finals, it would diminish him because the aura of invincibility would be gone. Also, no quotes are taken out of context.

You say that you aren't more qualified than the all-time greats, but then point out they've said stupid stuff. So what? It doesn't mean they are saying stupid stuff when they all say the same thing for the same reason. In this case, that MJ is the GOAT because he's 6-0 in the finals.

You can try and claim whatever you want re: their legacies, just know that the guys who's legacies are actually on the line and who actually did all of those things to have a legacy, disagree with you.

Disagree with what?

Jordan is the best. I am pretty sure you have misinterprated their statements. The aura of invincibility is not because of 6-0, it was because he owned the 90s. That would not have been any different if you add a loss in somewhere else.

 

[trojanfan12]

Trojan.. this all time greats agreeing with you is something you are just making up. You are claiming all the all time greats agree with your line of thinking. Offering no proof.. just something you have convinced yourself of. To me Jordan is the GOAT... but it's not because of just 6-0. Your reasoning is way to simplistic. It is the 6 final mvps, the scoring titles, all those league MVPs. Finals record alone as you are saying make Bill Russell the GOAT. Yet, most fans/ all time greats don't agree with that.

No I'm not. I'm telling you what they said and that I agree with them. You can try to make it about me all that you want. But you're wrong. I am agreeing with them, not the other way around.

The Bill Russell argument and why he's not GOAT was put to bed along time ago. What's next? The Robert Horry argument?

Kareem has 6 rings, 6 league MVP awards, was a 19 time all-star, was all NBA first team 10 times, was all NBA second team 5 times, was first team all defensive team 5 times, defensive second team 6 times, was a 2 time finals MVP, led the league in blocked shots 4 times, was rookie of the year and is the all-time leading scorer in NBA history (a record that may never be broken). His resume is as good or better than MJ's in nearly every category. Yet, he's not considered GOAT. Why? Because he lost in the finals 3 times.

Again, this about legacies and how the all-time greats separate themselves from each other. Not who the overall better player is. As I said before, no one on the list of all-time greats has Lebron's combination of size, strength, athleticism and speed. The only players even in the conversation on overall skill set are Magic and Bird who don't have his physical tools. But that's not what a legacy is about. A legacy is about winning, especially championships and as of now, Lebron comes up short.

 

[tlance]

And, if the all time greats think an earlier Finals loss would have diminished his legacy, then they would be wrong. I might not be more qualified, but I do have more common sense than someone who believes that.

 

[trojanfan12]

Disagree with what?

Jordan is the best. I am pretty sure you have misinterprated their statements. The aura of invincibility is not because of 6-0, it was because he owned the 90s. That would not have been any different if you add a loss in somewhere else.

You can be pretty sure all you want. The fact is, the all-time greats use ring count to separate themselves from each other and they all put MJ as GOAT because he's unbeaten in the finals. Lebron has 2 rings. Every other player om the list of all time greats has more and every one of them has a winning record in the finals except Lebron.

The only reason Lebron is in the discussion is because people want to make excuses for him that they don't make for any other player.

 

[tlance]

Kareem's is top 3 for sure. The reason he is not in MJ's level is not because of the losses. It is because of 2 Finals MVPs. For at least a couple of his rings, he was not the best player on his team. Prime Magic was better than mid-30s Kareem.

Jordan was always the man, hence 6 Finals MVPs.

 

[trojanfan12]

And, if the all time greats think an earlier Finals loss would have diminished his legacy, then they would be wrong. I might not be more qualified, but I do have more common sense than someone who believes that.

Okay, so now we get to what's real. You think you're qualified to tell all-time greats how they should separate themselves from one another. Glad that's out of the way.

A big part of his legacy is being unbeaten in the finals. It gives him an aura on invincibility that no one else has. If he had lost once or twice in the finals, he would no longer be unbeaten and would lose some of that aura. So yes, common sense says that it would diminish him somewhat. To what degree? We don't know because it didn't happen. Hence, the aforementioned aura of invincibility.

 

[tlance]

Okay, so now we get to what's real. You think you're qualified to tell all-time greats how they should separate themselves from one another. Glad that's out of the way.

A big part of his legacy is being unbeaten in the finals. It gives him an aura on invincibility that no one else has. If he had lost once or twice in the finals, he would no longer be unbeaten and would lose some of that aura. So yes, common sense says that it would diminish him somewhat. To what degree? We don't know because it didn't happen. Hence, the aforementioned aura of invincibility.

Ah, but now we get to yours.

You don't KNOW what they think because they have never answered that question. You are making assumptions. there is a 0% chance that every all time great would agree with the stance that you are taking, yet you present it as fact.

 

[trojanfan12]

Kareem's is top 3 for sure. The reason he is not in MJ's level is not because of the losses. It is because of 2 Finals MVPs. For at least a couple of his rings, he was not the best player on his team. Prime Magic was better than mid-30s Kareem.

Jordan was always the man, hence 6 Finals MVPs.

So despite ranking as high or higher than MJ in virtually every category, you think MJ is the GOAT because of 6 finals MVP's. Yet, you think he wouldn't be diminished at all if he had lost a finals or 2. Despite the fact that doing so, would likely also mean fewer finals MVP's.

So let's compare based on your finals criteria.

Kareem, 6-3 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's.
Kobe, 5-2 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's.
Magic, 5-4 in the finals with 3 finals MVP's.
Bird, 3-2 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's.
Lebron, 2-4 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's

So every single one of those players has as many or more finals MVP's as Lebron, with more rings and winning records in the finals. But somehow, Lebron is supposed to be ranked below only MJ?

The real question should be...why is Lebron even included in the discussion? Or are we going to have more of the "Well, if Lebron wins X number more championships" or "Well, such and such season shouldn't be counted against him because..." speculation and excuses?

 

[trojanfan12]

Ah, but now we get to yours.

You don't KNOW what they think because they have never answered that question. You are making assumptions. there is a 0% chance that every all time great would agree with the stance that you are taking, yet you present it as fact.

Uh no, they have all answered the same question, the same way every time. There is no speculation. They separate themselves by rings and count MJ as GOAT because he never lost. I'm sorry that you can't grasp that.

 

[tlance]

So despite ranking as high or higher than MJ in virtually every category, you think MJ is the GOAT because of 6 finals MVP's. Yet, you think he wouldn't be diminished at all if he had lost a finals or 2. Despite the fact that doing so, would likely also mean fewer finals MVP's.

So let's compare based on your finals criteria.

Kareem, 6-3 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's.
Kobe, 5-2 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's.
Magic, 5-4 in the finals with 3 finals MVP's.
Bird, 3-2 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's.
Lebron, 2-4 in the finals with 2 finals MVP's

So every single one of those players has as many or more finals MVP's as Lebron, with more rings and winning records in the finals. But somehow, Lebron is supposed to be ranked below only MJ?

The real question should be...why is Lebron even included in the discussion? Or are we going to have more of the "Well, if Lebron wins X number more championships" or "Well, such and such season shouldn't be counted against him because..." speculation and excuses?

When did I ever say or imply that LeBron was number 2? I have never said that. I said to enter the discussion he would need at least 2 or 3 more titles. He is not even in the conversation right now. All I said is that his losses don't rule him out from ever getting there.

But, I do believe that 1 more ring + Finals MVP would get him past guys like Kobe and Bird for sure. He would still be looking up at Kareem, and Magic IMO.

 

[tlance]

Uh no, they have all answered the same question, the same way every time. There is no speculation. They separate themselves by rings and count MJ as GOAT because he never lost. I'm sorry that you can't grasp that.

The question is whether Jordan would have been diminished with a Finals loss before his run of 6 ever began.

Tell me, who have you heard answer that question?

 

[tlance]

If Jordan were 4-2, he would be diminished. At 6-2 he would still reign supreme quite easily. Who else on that list has more than 3 Finals MVPs?

 

[trojanfan12]

When did I ever say or imply that LeBron was number 2? I have never said that. I said to enter the discussion he would need at least 2 or 3 more titles. He is not even in the conversation right now.

My bad. I was making 2 different arguments in the same post.

But, I do believe that 1 more ring + Finals MVP would get him past guys like Kobe and Bird for sure. He would still be looking up at Kareem, and Magic IMO.

Not sure I agree completely. I can see him passing Kobe because he would have one more finals MVP than Kobe and while Kobe would still have more titles, Lebron would have more finals MVP's and been the undisputed leader on every finals team he was on, win or lose. It would give him 1 more ring and 1 more MVP as the undisputed leader than Kobe has.

Don't think I'd bump him over Bird. They would be tied in both rings and finals MVP's and Lebron would still have a losing record in the finals. I think he needs 2 more titles and 1 more finals MVP to pass Bird.

If he wins at least 2 more finals and 2 more finals MVP's, then he enters the Magic/Kareem discussion and makes it the Magic/Kareem/Lebron discussion, imo. But just like them and every other all time great, still a step behind MJ.