Game Thread: Water Thieves @ Rodominator

[pachyderm]

I am not a huge fan of the “he was a HOFer before he cheated” argument. Mainly because of Pete Rose, though. Rose’s transgression was sooooo egregious that what he did before is immaterial. If you believe Bonds’ transgressions so bad, what he did before he “broke bad” shouldn’t matter.

I actually go back and forth on the PED stuff. I don't like it but honestly #25 was so damn good before all that I will always see it as a shame that he took PED's.

I was very happy when he signed with us.

My PED is CBD. It helps me sleep and move more comfortably.

And honestly I'd rather #25 get in the HOF before/over Pete Rose. For me a pro athlete/manager betting on any sport is criminal, even if they did "bet on their own team to win"... Jesus.

 

[calsnowskier]

I actually go back and forth on the PED stuff. I don't like it but honestly #25 was so damn good before all that I will always see it as a shame that he took PED's.

I was very happy when he signed with us.

My PED is CBD. It helps me sleep and move more comfortably.

And honestly I'd rather #25 get in the HOF before/over Pete Rose. For me a pro athlete/manager betting on any sport is criminal, even if they did "bet on their own team to win"... Jesus.

The “he only bet on the Reds to win” argument is complete bunk to me. All that means is that he was essentially betting on them to lose when he didn’t bet.

Or maybe he kept Dibble in the game for an extra inning tonight when he bet the Reds would win, making him unavailable tomorrow, when he wasn’t betting.

 

[msgkings322]

Ruth is most likely the most important player in the history of the game (for the game itself), but I don’t think he is GOAT.


Mays
Bonds
Henderson
Williams
…

I decided Ruth is GOAT because he was a HOF level hitter AND pitcher. Also when he was hitting he was orders of magnitude better than the league, he had no rival.

The only negative for him as I see it is he didn't face the best in the world (only white people), Bonds and Henderson did.

But like all these debates, there's no provable correct answer. The arguments are the point.

Bonds or Williams were the best hitters, but Ruth is in that conversation, Mays best all around with Henderson close behind. Only Ruth was also a great pitcher.

 

[msgkings322]

Bobby Bonds was ok but he wasn't the one of the greatest...

Bernie Williams and Dave Henderson weren't either, to be fair

 

[pachyderm]

Bernie Williams and Dave Henderson weren't either, to be fair

My first thought Hendu as well... damn did he have a gap in that smile.

 

[pachyderm]

The “he only bet on the Reds to win” argument is complete bunk to me. All that means is that he was essentially betting on them to lose when he didn’t bet.

Or maybe he kept Dibble in the game for an extra inning tonight when he bet the Reds would win, making him unavailable tomorrow, when he wasn’t betting.

No matter what when you start betting you give an opening to outside/unsavory influences.

 

[calsnowskier]

I decided Ruth is GOAT because he was a HOF level hitter AND pitcher. Also when he was hitting he was orders of magnitude better than the league, he had no rival.

The only negative for him as I see it is he didn't face the best in the world (only white people), Bonds and Henderson did.

But like all these debates, there's no provable correct answer. The arguments are the point.

Bonds or Williams were the best hitters, but Ruth is in that conversation, Mays best all around with Henderson close behind. Only Ruth was also a great pitcher.

Absolutely an argument based on opinion and completely unprovable in any way. Thus it is an argument for argument's sake.

he was head and shoulders above everyone else, sure. But he was one of only a handful of players actually making enough money to actually make the game his career. Most of the players he was playing against were working other “careers” to actually make ends meet.

He could only play against the players that were put in front of him, though, and he destroyed them.

 

[tzill]

I am not a huge fan of the “he was a HOFer before he cheated” argument. Mainly because of Pete Rose, though. Rose’s transgression was sooooo egregious that what he did before is immaterial. If you believe Bonds’ transgressions so bad, what he did before he “broke bad” shouldn’t matter.

I guess, but they are very different transgressions in my eye.

BLB did what many were doing, there were no rules against it, the League looked the other way, and he only started doing it after Mac/Sosa popularized it.

Rose did what nobody else was doing, it was embedded as illegal in the rules, the League had punished it harshly before, and he did it for a long time.

Bonds is in, Rose stays out.

 

[tzill]

Bernie Williams and Dave Henderson weren't either, to be fair

Matt Williams is the greatest hitter ever to take ME deep.

 

[calsnowskier]

No matter what when you start betting you give an opening to outside/unsavory influences.

That’s why it is rule #1 and there is plaque addressing it in every locker room for every sport. Once that integrity level is broken in a sport, the entire sport could go down.

 

[msgkings322]

I guess, but they are very different transgressions in my eye.

BLB did what many were doing, there were no rules against it, the League looked the other way, and he only started doing it after Mac/Sosa popularized it.

Rose did what nobody else was doing, it was embedded as illegal in the rules, the League had punished it harshly before, and he did it for a long time.

Bonds is in, Rose stays out.

Clemens too, same reasons.

Rose I have no problem with putting in after he dies, per his agreement.

 

[msgkings322]

Matt Williams is the greatest hitter ever to take ME deep.

Who's the worst to do that?

 

[calsnowskier]

Matt Williams is the greatest hitter ever to take ME deep.

Let’s keep your personal conquests out of this please…

 

[calsnowskier]

I guess, but they are very different transgressions in my eye.

BLB did what many were doing, there were no rules against it, the League looked the other way, and he only started doing it after Mac/Sosa popularized it.

Rose did what nobody else was doing, it was embedded as illegal in the rules, the League had punished it harshly before, and he did it for a long time.

Bonds is in, Rose stays out.

I agree. Even if you do grant that Bonds did it (I believe he did, but he was never technically caught doing it), he never broke a baseball rule. Neither did McGwire. Sosa had the cork issue, so he has extra stank on him.

As for Rose, I would never even consider him until he dies (As per his AGREEMENT; the penalty was not imposed on him, he AGREED to it). But he is not an automatic in in my book.

 

[tzill]

Let’s keep your personal conquests out of this please…

That ball is still going, 40 years later.

 

[calsnowskier]

That ball is still going, 40 years later.

Aren’t you supposed to see a doctor after just 4 hours?

 

[msgkings322]

Just for fun I looked up Henderson's stats. Lifetime he was a really good hitter but not all time great. His 1990 MVP season was ridiculous however. Obviously the steals get our attention but that's not enough to make him GOAT level. And was he a great fielder? One Gold Glove when he was 22. Played for so many teams, 9 total including some more than once.

Had his last good year at age 40 in 1999 for the Mets. Was pretty rough after that although he did steal 36 bases at age 41.

Played from age 20 to age 44, in 4 different decades.

Rickey Henderson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Rickey Henderson. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[calsnowskier]

Just for fun I looked up Henderson's stats. Lifetime he was a really good hitter but not all time great. His 1990 MVP season was ridiculous however. Obviously the steals get our attention but that's not enough to make him GOAT level. And was he a great fielder? One Gold Glove when he was 22. Played for so many teams, 9 total including some more than once.

Had his last good year at age 40 in 1999 for the Mets. Was pretty rough after that although he did steal 36 bases at age 41.

Played from age 20 to age 44, in 4 different decades.

He had every tool. And when he got on base, the batters behind him had a HUGE advantage because of how much he fucked with the pitchers.

I realize I go against the grain a bit in how highly I praise Ricky, but that is a hill I am willing to die on. Henderson, as great as he is considered, is still one of the most underrated players in the history of the game.

And the fact that he never voluntarily retired just makes me love him even more. He truly loved the game and would have (and essentially did) play for free.

 

[msgkings322]

He had every tool. And when he got on base, the batters behind him had a HUGE advantage because of how much he fucked with the pitchers.

I realize I go against the grain a bit in how highly I praise Ricky, but that is a hill I am willing to die on. Henderson, as great as he is considered, is still one of the most underrated players in the history of the game.

And the fact that he never voluntarily retired just makes me love him even more. He truly loved the game and would have (and essentially did) play for free.

Finished his career on the Dodgers, age 44, with 84 plate appearances...but he did have 3 steals and not caught once that year.

 

[tzill]

He had every tool. And when he got on base, the batters behind him had a HUGE advantage because of how much he fucked with the pitchers.

I realize I go against the grain a bit in how highly I praise Ricky, but that is a hill I am willing to die on. Henderson, as great as he is considered, is still one of the most underrated players in the history of the game.

And the fact that he never voluntarily retired just makes me love him even more. He truly loved the game and would have (and essentially did) play for free.

I'm with you on Ricky. The 89 WS is etched in my mind, and not just b/c the stadium swayed during the earthquake. We had to have Robby Thomson hold him on second...and he would still steal third.