Wade: Lebron will never pass MJ

[Bulletz]

I find it interesting that when LBJ did change teams he stayed in the Eastern Conf. My guess is he wouldn't have made 7 straight Finals playing in the Western Conf.

Depends on the team obviously, but yea, it's pretty unlikely.

 

[CodeBreaker]

If LeBron beats this super team Warriors, he'll be the GOAT

 

[Heatles84]

If LeBron beats this super team Warriors, he'll be the GOAT

No.

 

[CodeBreaker]

No.

I don't see LeBron beating this Warriors team either

 

[tlance]

I don't think anyone puts those losing seasons against the Pistons in a "positive" column. I think it's more of a testament that MJ stayed with the Bulls despite losing so many times and worked through adversity to become a winner. In comparison- LBJ did the exact opposite.

Apples to oranges comparison though.

First, Chicago was able to pay Jordan substantially more than anybody else to resign him. There were no max contracts, so a team with Bird rights could pay whatever they wanted to resign their own guy. Any other team had to keep it under the cap. For example, in 97 and 98, the Bulls paid Jordan 33 million a year when the entire salary cap was like 26 million.

Second, Cleveland's core was ridiculously weak where Jordan's had some up and coming young talent in it.

People want to criticize current players for moving in free agency because old timers didn't do it. The problem is that you fail to see the free agency rules of the era made it almost impossible for an elite player to leave their team if that team wanted to retain them. THE exact opposite is true today.

Look, I was a huge Jordan fan growing up. I watched every game. Still, it is comical how people elevate him to untouchable deity status. He was truly great, but a lot of the circumstance that helped fuel his legacy were completely outside of his control. Still, people revere MJ for his good fortune to land in a great organization. At the same time, LeBron gets killed for trying to take control of his own destiny. It really makes no sense if you objectively view each player's situation in context with free agency rules.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Apples to oranges comparison though.

First, Chicago was able to pay Jordan substantially more than anybody else to resign him. There were no max contracts, so a team with Bird rights could pay whatever they wanted to resign their own guy. Any other team had to keep it under the cap. For example, in 97 and 98, the Bulls paid Jordan 33 million a year when the entire salary cap was like 26 million.

Second, Cleveland's core was ridiculously weak where Jordan's had some up and coming young talent in it.

People want to criticize current players for moving in free agency because old timers didn't do it. The problem is that you fail to see the free agency rules of the era made it almost impossible for an elite player to leave their team if that team wanted to retain them. THE exact opposite is true today.

Look, I was a huge Jordan fan growing up. I watched every game. Still, it is comical how people elevate him to untouchable deity status. He was truly great, but a lot of the circumstance that helped fuel his legacy were completely outside of his control. Still, people revere MJ for his good fortune to land in a great organization. At the same time, LeBron gets killed for trying to take control of his own destiny. It really makes no sense if you objectively view each player's situation in context with free agency rules.

Jordan's Bulls had three terrible seasons to start his career. Through the draft, free agency and trades that Bulls team got better.

Lebron made the finals in his third year. Whether or not the core was ridiculously weak, are you telling me the future wasn't on the up for that team?!?

Fact is, lebron took the easy way out and joined a team with TWO legitimate superstars...

TWICE

when the going got tough.

He never had to build anything - he was hand fed for most of his career.

 

[tlance]

I don't think LeBron is on par with MJ and I don't think he will catch him, but that is more because I see a handful of titles going to Oakland in the next few years.

LeBron is easily top 5 right now and I think he is a lot closer to Magic and Kareem than Wilt is to him.

By the way, with all the super team discussions, the Lakers on Bulls were both super teams. They were just constructed differently because the rules of the era were different. If Magic had played his entire career in Milwaukee, he probably would not be on any GOAT lists. That was essentially the hand LeBron was dealt before he exercised free agency and changed his legacy. It is amazing to me that some people can't see that.

 

[tlance]

Jordan's Bulls had three terrible seasons to start his career. Through the draft, free agency and trades that Bulls team got better.

Lebron made the finals in his third year. Whether or not the core was ridiculously weak, are you telling me the future wasn't on the up for that team?!?

Fact is, lebron took the easy way out and joined a team with TWO legitimate superstars...

TWICE

when the going got tough.

He never had to build anything - he was hand fed for most of his career.

LOL. The same "core" led them to 19 wins the year after LeBron left. No, they surely were not in the rise. They had an aging group that lacked a legit second option.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

LOL. The same "core" led them to 19 wins the year after LeBron left. No, they surely were not in the rise. They had an aging group that lacked a legit second option.

I've highlighted that key phrase here.

 

[tlance]

I've highlighted that key phrase here.

Um...

The fact that they won 19 games proves they had a shitty core.

The year Jordan was playing baseball, the Bulls made it to game 7 of the Eastern conference semis against a team that took the Rockets to 7 games of the NBA Finals. In fact, if not for a very controversial foul call at the of game 5 in the Garden in that series, the Jordanless Bulls likely would have beaten the Knicks and advanced to the ECF.

The Bulls were in the mix with contending teams sans Jordan and the Cavs won 19 games. How in the hell can anybody justify that the Cavs had a good core? They were good for 1 reason: LeBron.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Um...

The fact that they won 19 games proves they had a shitty core.

The year Jordan was playing baseball, the Bulls made it to game 7 of the Eastern conference semis against a team that took the Rockets to 7 games of the NBA Finals. In fact, if not for a very controversial foul call at the of game 5 in the Garden in that series, the Jordanless Bulls likely would have beaten the Knicks and advanced to the ECF.

The Bulls were in the mix with contending teams sans Jordan and the Cavs won 19 games. How in the hell can anybody justify that the Cavs had a good core? They were good for 1 reason: LeBron.

The Lakers, minus Kobe, had a pretty shitty core in 2005 too. Yet three years later they're back in the Finals.

How did that happen? And did Kobe bail?

 

[tlance]

The Lakers, minus Kobe, had a pretty shitty core in 2005 too. Yet three years later they're back in the Finals.

How did that happen? And did Kobe bail?

He threatened to, multiple times.

Also, you cannot compare LA to Cleveland as a free agent destination. LA is the ideal market and at the time, they had a great front office too. Cleveland had nine of that.

You keep comparing LeBron to players that were in very different situations. It is not fair. I guarantee you that if free agency rules had always been the same as they are today, many of the old players who take shots at LeBron for leaving would have done the exact same thing.

 

[shopson67]

LOL. The same "core" led them to 19 wins the year after LeBron left. No, they surely were not in the rise. They had an aging group that lacked a legit second option.

The only carry-over players for the Cavs were Boobie, Antawn, JJ Hickson, Moon, Anthony Parker, Powe, Varejao, Jawad and Moe Williams. No Z, no Shaq, no Danny Green, no Telfair, no Delonte among others. They didn't replace any of them with players of note really, including the large hole left by Lebron leaving. Even their draft picks sucked (to be expected, given they were late in the rounds).

 

[shopson67]

He threatened to, multiple times.

Also, you cannot compare LA to Cleveland as a free agent destination. LA is the ideal market and at the time, they had a great front office too. Cleveland had nine of that.

You keep comparing LeBron to players that were in very different situations. It is not fair. I guarantee you that if free agency rules had always been the same as they are today, many of the old players who take shots at LeBron for leaving would have done the exact same thing.

How has that free-agency destination that LA supposedly is worked for the Lakers with Kobe around? Lakers made their improvements through trades in the Kobe era. Other than Metta, it was Shaq that drew the free agents.

 

[tlance]

The only carry-over players for the Cavs were Boobie, Antawn, JJ Hickson, Moon, Anthony Parker, Powe, Varejao, Jawad and Moe Williams. No Z, no Shaq, no Danny Green, no Telfair, no Delonte among others. They didn't replace any of them with players of note really, including the large hole left by Lebron leaving. Even their draft picks sucked (to be expected, given they were late in the rounds).

Shaq played 37 games in 2010-11. He was not making a substantial impact. WIlliams was a low end starter and Danny Green played less than 6 minutes a game in '10 and less than 12 minutes in '11 with the Spurs. Acting like these players would have added more than a small handful of wins is wrong.

Shaqdaddy said that Cleveland's future was on the up. Yet, LeBron spent his first 7 seasons there and management made zero progress in surrounding him with anything but fading vets, role players, and Antawn Jamison. They were not "on the up". They were good because LeBron carried them. They had 7 years to build a quality core around LeBron. If he had anything resembling young, quality talent around him I bet he would have stayed.

 

[tlance]

How has that free-agency destination that LA supposedly is worked for the Lakers with Kobe around? Lakers made their improvements through trades in the Kobe era. Other than Metta, it was Shaq that drew the free agents.

wrong Buss, no West and Kobe's difficult personality surely had something to do with that.

 

[Heatles84]

Jordan's Bulls had three terrible seasons to start his career. Through the draft, free agency and trades that Bulls team got better.

Lebron made the finals in his third year. Whether or not the core was ridiculously weak, are you telling me the future wasn't on the up for that team?!?

Fact is, lebron took the easy way out and joined a team with TWO legitimate superstars...

TWICE

when the going got tough.

He never had to build anything - he was hand fed for most of his career.

I don't mind the fact that Lebron left the Cavs the first time. Quite honestly, as @tlance mentioned, he exercised his free agency right and the Cavs management could never really put a quality product around him - as evident by the 26-game losing streak they had the following season Lebron was in Miami. And yes, I'm fully aware that it's not a problem from my view point given that it was my team, but I even said the same for if he were to go to Chicago. Some players can't help that they have bad management.

I have an issue where he left the second time given that he just left a team that went to the Finals for 4 straight years. He essentially took the opportunists approach and that's where I can't ever put Lebron in the GOAT slot in my personal perspective. As shaqdaddy mentioned, when the going got tough on the 2nd go around - he left. I will always wonder if he would've left had he been given the opportunity after that 2011 Finals.

 

[shopson67]

wrong Buss, no West and Kobe's difficult personality surely had something to do with that.

The fact remains that the Lakers haven't won through free agency other than Shaq. All of their other big acquisitions have been trades or draft picks. They'll pick up the occasional role player, but that's all it has been.

 

[shopson67]

Shaq played 37 games in 2010-11. He was not making a substantial impact. WIlliams was a low end starter and Danny Green played less than 6 minutes a game in '10 and less than 12 minutes in '11 with the Spurs. Acting like these players would have added more than a small handful of wins is wrong.

Shaqdaddy said that Cleveland's future was on the up. Yet, LeBron spent his first 7 seasons there and management made zero progress in surrounding him with anything but fading vets, role players, and Antawn Jamison. They were not "on the up". They were good because LeBron carried them. They had 7 years to build a quality core around LeBron. If he had anything resembling young, quality talent around him I bet he would have stayed.

As long as Lebron was there, it was on the up. They would continue to try to build around him, find better fits, etc. He chickened out and joined someone else's team to skip the hard work part of building a champion.

 

[gordontrue]

when the going got tough on the 2nd go around - he left

I'm not so sure he wouldn't have gone back to Cleveland either way - even if they had somehow beat the Spurs that year. In some ways it would've made that decision even easier to make. And LeBron did his part in the 2014 Finals, imo. It wasn't at all like the 2009 loss to the Magic or the 2011 loss to the Mavs, where not only did LeBron fail to get it done... he failed to even do his part.