Training Camp Thread

[Crimsoncrew]

And I understand Deep's point, I just think he's premature in writing off the draft approach. It's a given some of these IR guys aren't going to pan out. But Deep has historically shown no willingness to accept that it's a given that healthy guys don't pan out all the time, too.

Vance McDonald was perfectly healthy when he picked him. So were Corey Lemonier and Quinton Patton. Heck, so were AJ Jenkins and LaMichael James. It would seem that the approach of drafting healthy players has been a failure, too.

 

[purguy12]

See, there's that unrealistic expectations thing, again. There are a few problems with what you've said above. Thomas was a third-round pick in name only. He was taken with the 100th pick, which would be a 4th round pick but for comp picks (he was taken with a comp pick, the final pick of the 3rd). The 100th pick is pretty different from the 65th pick, even though both are technically third round picks. He did not learn the playbook last year because we have implemented a new blocking scheme. He has not had a year in the strength and conditioning program because he was recovering from an ACL tear. He is effectively a rookie this year.

Should he be starting? I think there's a strong argument he should. But that has more to do with the state of the RG position than realistic expectations for a guy taken 100th overall who didn't come close to playing as a rookie. As far as I'm concerned, if he moved into a starting job next year, he'd be right on track and a solid 100th pick.

Its not unrealistic, the coaching staff thought the same thing. That's why they let Iupati go. They thought they had Iupati replacement. They were banking on Thomas. I disagree with your last 2 statements. Yes Its a new scheme but overall he still had a year to watch film and learn his position. Also yes he has had a year under the strength and condition program. Maybe not to the full extent of it but weight lifting and eating program. Also his condition shouldnt be way off because I know ACL rehab helps your strength your leg to be stronger(I went through it twice in my life). Yes I know its not football shape but he had plenty of time.

Im not saying he should be a pro bowl but at least be our starter and be productive. Maybe next year he can make that big jump. Again just my opinion.

 

[purguy12]

And I understand Deep's point, I just think he's premature in writing off the draft approach. It's a given some of these IR guys aren't going to pan out. But Deep has historically shown no willingness to accept that it's a given that healthy guys don't pan out all the time, too.

Vance McDonald was perfectly healthy when he picked him. So were Corey Lemonier and Quinton Patton. Heck, so were AJ Jenkins and LaMichael James. It would seem that the approach of drafting healthy players has been a failure, too.

This is where I agree with you. Im with the plan of taking an IR guy every year especially when u have a lot of extra picks like we had in the last couple of years. Next year is the same. We have the most I think already.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Its not unrealistic, the coaching staff thought the same thing. That's why they let Iupati go. They thought they had Iupati replacement. They were banking on Thomas. I disagree with your last 2 statements. Yes Its a new scheme but overall he still had a year to watch film and learn his position. Also yes he has had a year under the strength and condition program. Maybe not to the full extent of it but weight lifting and eating program. Also his condition shouldnt be way off because I know ACL rehab helps your strength your leg to be stronger(I went through it twice in my life). Yes I know its not football shape but he had plenty of time.

Im not saying he should be a pro bowl but at least be our starter and be productive. Maybe next year he can make that big jump. Again just my opinion.

You can't read that much into the FO's decision to let Iupati go. Iupati got big money, plays a non-premium position, has had injury issues, and has been shaky as a pass blocker. The decision to let him walk rather than paying him $8 million a year doesn't say anything about Thomas IMO. Sure, they hoped Thomas would be available and effective, but if they were banking on him to start from day one this year, that was a mistake. The guys they were banking on were Kilgore and possibly Martin.

A year of watching film and learning his position is all well and good, but there's only so much you can learn from watching. I've been watching football my whole life. I'm still a lousy WR. And your statement was that he had a year to learn the playbook. That's irrelevant now as the playbook has changed, especially for the OL.

Finally, there's no way that the average NFL player's leg is stronger a year after ACL injury than it was before that. You are - I'm assuming - an ordinary person who doesn't work out for a living. The fact that you've torn your ACL twice suggests some level of physical activity, but I'm guessing you aren't a professional athlete. You probably had plenty of room to go to strengthen your leg. These guys are elite athletes. They are at or near their physical peak. Expecting them to be stronger after ACL surgery is a stretch. And coming back from the injury would have forced Thomas' work in the weight room to center on rehabbing his injury, not strengthening himself over all. It's a very different experience from the guy who is just working on developing his body and not recovering.

 

[purguy12]

what surprise Devey who we traded for won the starting RG with out even really playing. I guess he was good in practice. i think this is a little bit of a shocker. he didnt play on 1st or 2nd teams.

 

[deep9er]

And I understand Deep's point, I just think he's premature in writing off the draft approach. It's a given some of these IR guys aren't going to pan out. But Deep has historically shown no willingness to accept that it's a given that healthy guys don't pan out all the time, too.

Vance McDonald was perfectly healthy when he picked him. So were Corey Lemonier and Quinton Patton. Heck, so were AJ Jenkins and LaMichael James. It would seem that the approach of drafting healthy players has been a failure, too.

ok, but i knew you understood.

Your opinion means Baalke can continue drafting IR players next year. You know i'll bring this up again later.

If you want to ignore all the concrete evidence from Looney, Lattimore, Carradine, and Thomas, that is your right. If you choose to ignore what these guys haven't done to date, or taken too long to produce, that is your right. If you're still hanging your opinion on PROJECTIONS for Carradine and Thomas only, that is your right.

Simply can't believe you wrote that 2nd paragraph, that is REALLY reaching?! It is saying it doesn't matter whether we draft IR or healthy players, does that REALLY make sense? If Carradine, Thomas, Lattimore, and Looney were all in the same draft, it is ok to draft all four? Cause this is trying to say it doesn't matter healthy or not.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

ok, but i knew you understood.

Your opinion means Baalke can continue drafting IR players next year. You know i'll bring this up again later.

If you want to ignore all the concrete evidence from Looney, Lattimore, Carradine, and Thomas, that is your right. If you choose to ignore what these guys haven't done to date, or taken too long to produce, that is your right. If you're still hanging your opinion on PROJECTIONS for Carradine and Thomas only, that is your right.

Simply can't believe you wrote that 2nd paragraph, that is REALLY reaching?! It is saying it doesn't matter whether we draft IR or healthy players, does that REALLY make sense? If Carradine, Thomas, Lattimore, and Looney were all in the same draft, it is ok to draft all four? Cause this is trying to say it doesn't matter healthy or not.

My second paragraph was meant to highlight the absurdity of your position. You point to IR players who haven't panned out - one or two years into their careers - and completely ignore the fact that very few of our draft picks over the past three years have done much of anything. At this point, the only healthy players drafted from 2012 to 2014 who have performed at or above their draft position are Eric Reid (1st round) and Aaron Lynch (5th round). By my count, that's two of twenty-two players. I'll throw in Borland (3rd round) for good measure. Conversely, Quinton Dial (5th round) has contributed nicely among the IR folks. That's one of seven players. It would appear that to date the IR players are actually statistically slightly more likely to make a positive impact than the healthy players. That's arguably more significant when you consider that we have taken nine healthy in rounds one through three and only two IR players - and one of the two was literally the last pick in the third round.

The fact that Brandon Thomas, taken with the 100th pick in the 2014 draft and a year-and-a-half removed from an ACL tear, is not starting at OG - a position he hasn't played since 2011 - isn't concrete evidence of anything. Joe Looney has been exactly what a person with a firm grasp of the realities of the NFL draft would expect from a fourth rounder. Carradine was not going to start for us last year under any scenario short of him being a pro bowl player, his playing time increased throughout the year, and he had three sacks in the last three games, indicating that he was starting to put things together. If he is bad this season, then by all means raise your complaints about him again. Right now, it's premature.

Lattimore doesn't really fit in this mix as far as I'm concerned. Lattimore was the ultimate lottery ticket, and everyone - again, I'm talking about people who have a basic understanding of football and a realistic view of the NFL draft - knew that he was at best 50/50 to return to the field. Given that we got him over three rounds later than he was projected prior to the injury, some people would consider that a worthwhile risk. But he was much riskier than these other guys.

 

[Pattersonca65]

don't respond to only part of my comment, that's what Crimson always does. Because he agrees with me more than he admits, but he needs to pick on SOMETHING. Anyway, my comment is about drafting IR players, Thomas and Carradine were two of the examples.

i'm not focusing on Thomas or Carradine by themselves, i'm saying is it worth spending a 3rd rounder (Thomas) and wait MORE than a season? In Carradine's case, 2-1/2 seasons.

Is it worth spending a pick only to get a performance not even exceeding that round? Which IR has even matched his draft round, only Dial so far?

I am not trying to pick on something you posted, just saying I think it takes longer for olineman to develop. In the case of Carradine, this team had depth at oline when Carradine was drafted. He wasn't given much of an opportunity to play until this season. With Harbaugh's reluctance to play rookies for the most part, going to be hard for any rookie to show something

 

[Pattersonca65]

See, there's that unrealistic expectations thing, again. There are a few problems with what you've said above. Thomas was a third-round pick in name only. He was taken with the 100th pick, which would be a 4th round pick but for comp picks (he was taken with a comp pick, the final pick of the 3rd). The 100th pick is pretty different from the 65th pick, even though both are technically third round picks. He did not learn the playbook last year because we have implemented a new blocking scheme. He has not had a year in the strength and conditioning program because he was recovering from an ACL tear. He is effectively a rookie this year.

Should he be starting? I think there's a strong argument he should. But that has more to do with the state of the RG position than realistic expectations for a guy taken 100th overall who didn't come close to playing as a rookie. As far as I'm concerned, if he moved into a starting job next year, he'd be right on track and a solid 100th pick.

I agree

 

[deep9er]

I am not trying to pick on something you posted, just saying I think it takes longer for olineman to develop. In the case of Carradine, this team had depth at oline when Carradine was drafted. He wasn't given much of an opportunity to play until this season. With Harbaugh's reluctance to play rookies for the most part, going to be hard for any rookie to show something

i know it takes time for lineman to develop, but i posted that as part of the IR discussion. It wasn't a 'stand alone' comment you responded to.

This is Carradine's 3rd season, so even if you label last season as his 'rookie' one, is he going to perform THIS year like a 1st round talent? He isn't even an every down player? One article said he was a "top 10 talent"?

BTW - I've always said differing opinions is what makes any board work, no problem if ANY of your opinions differ from mine.

 

[Pattersonca65]

i know it takes time for lineman to develop, but i posted that as part of the IR discussion. It wasn't a 'stand alone' comment you responded to.

This is Carradine's 3rd season, so even if you label last season as his 'rookie' one, is he going to perform THIS year like a 1st round talent? He isn't even an every down player? One article said he was a "top 10 talent"?

BTW - I've always said differing opinions is what makes any board work, no problem if ANY of your opinions differ from mine.

Carradine does need to show something this year. He did show some flashes last year, but that was in limited play. If all Carradine does is come in on passing downs, then he does need to show that he can put pressure on the QB.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

i know it takes time for lineman to develop, but i posted that as part of the IR discussion. It wasn't a 'stand alone' comment you responded to.

This is Carradine's 3rd season, so even if you label last season as his 'rookie' one, is he going to perform THIS year like a 1st round talent? He isn't even an every down player? One article said he was a "top 10 talent"?

BTW - I've always said differing opinions is what makes any board work, no problem if ANY of your opinions differ from mine.

What possible difference does it make what one article said? Does that influence your expectations? Carradine was taken something like 40th overall. He was not going to start in his first two years no matter how healthy he was. This season, if he stays healthy, he should play in the ballpark of 50% of the snaps. That's absolutely fine for a DL. How many DL are every-down players? Most teams use a rotation, except for special talents (JJ Watt, Justin Smith, etc.). And many guys who are extremely talented - again, I've used the example of Michael Bennett - are still part-time players because it benefits the team to have a nice rotation along the DL.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Carradine does need to show something this year. He did show some flashes last year, but that was in limited play. If all Carradine does is come in on passing downs, then he does need to show that he can put pressure on the QB.

Absolutely. That's why he was brought in, and he needs to do it. So let's see what he actually does before passing judgment.

 

[Pattersonca65]

The 49ers' investment in Tank Carradine is finally paying off

Lets here it for the tank, lol. When I saw the headline, I got excited. Then I read the article and it was nothing but fluff really. He didn't really give a reason other than hope. Anyway, lets hope Tank becomes that player.

 

[purguy12]

The 49ers' investment in Tank Carradine is finally paying off

Lets here it for the tank, lol. When I saw the headline, I got excited. Then I read the article and it was nothing but fluff really. He didn't really give a reason other than hope. Anyway, lets hope Tank becomes that player.

I don't think will be a great player but I think he can be a nice productive player.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

My second paragraph was meant to highlight the absurdity of your position. You point to IR players who haven't panned out - one or two years into their careers - and completely ignore the fact that very few of our draft picks over the past three years have done much of anything. At this point, the only healthy players drafted from 2012 to 2014 who have performed at or above their draft position are Eric Reid (1st round) and Aaron Lynch (5th round). By my count, that's two of twenty-two players. I'll throw in Borland (3rd round) for good measure. Conversely, Quinton Dial (5th round) has contributed nicely among the IR folks. That's one of seven players. It would appear that to date the IR players are actually statistically slightly more likely to make a positive impact than the healthy players. That's arguably more significant when you consider that we have taken nine healthy in rounds one through three and only two IR players - and one of the two was literally the last pick in the third round.

The fact that Brandon Thomas, taken with the 100th pick in the 2014 draft and a year-and-a-half removed from an ACL tear, is not starting at OG - a position he hasn't played since 2011 - isn't concrete evidence of anything. Joe Looney has been exactly what a person with a firm grasp of the realities of the NFL draft would expect from a fourth rounder. Carradine was not going to start for us last year under any scenario short of him being a pro bowl player, his playing time increased throughout the year, and he had three sacks in the last three games, indicating that he was starting to put things together. If he is bad this season, then by all means raise your complaints about him again. Right now, it's premature.

Lattimore doesn't really fit in this mix as far as I'm concerned. Lattimore was the ultimate lottery ticket, and everyone - again, I'm talking about people who have a basic understanding of football and a realistic view of the NFL draft - knew that he was at best 50/50 to return to the field. Given that we got him over three rounds later than he was projected prior to the injury, some people would consider that a worthwhile risk. But he was much riskier than these other guys.

Nothing to say about this post, Deep? Specifically the success rate of healthy players relative to IR players?

 

[purguy12]

I hope 49ers front office is keeping an eye out for players that are release at the RT, G, OLB position or Pass rusher. We can really use some help.

 

[deep9er]

Nothing to say about this post, Deep? Specifically the success rate of healthy players relative to IR players?

there is nothing to say because you're trying to connect things that shouldn't be.

You're now saying drafting IR players is the same as drafting healthy players, does that make sense to you? No it doesn't make sense, because you're reaching for an angle to keep on this. You said you understand my point, but you keep arguing without using the very proof we have. Oh thats right, there isn't anything positive about the IR players we drafted.

You're not taking about the solid evidence from Looney, Lattimore, Carradine, and Thomas, to make your point. You're reaching on cap space, Michael Bennett, and now how healthy players are the same as IR ones.

You say it is premature to judge when there is solid proof right in front of you. What value did we get from Looney and Lattimore? What value did we get from Carradine after TWO years and counting? How long is it taking Thomas to even compete against a cast-off like Devey?

You have proof from the 2012 draft onward, but still say it is premature??!! How much MORE evidence do you need?

 

[Cut My Red I Bleed Gold]

I'm a turtle.

 

[purguy12]

There is a risk with every player u draft. Healthy or not. U have no idea what u are getting. Im ok with the plan of taking 1 redshirt guy every year when we have extra picks like we have. The last couple of years we had like 8-10 picks like every year. Not all can make the team so why not take an IR guy. Baalke has shown he likes to take one and he has shown he will trade up. I wish some times he would trade up more when we have a crazy amount of picks.

Overall im ok with how he drafts. Hopefully we hit a Home run soon with one of these IR guys. right we hit a couple of singles, struck out a couple of times but that is fine.