Trading DOWN

[flyerhawk]

ok i know the draft is not over but right now, i grade it a D-. I have never graded a Hawks draft lower than a C before.

I would grade it a F but i can't go that bad until we see these kids play.

So which players are going to be busts?

 

[blstoker]

My thoughts on the picks:

#35 - Malik McDowell, DT Michigan State

I know a lot of people are scratching their heads on McDowell, especially since they view him as a rotational player. I don't share the same pessimism about him, both as a talent and as to what role he would play. Talent-wise he's better than what most can expect in a second round pick. He's a little raw, his technique needs refining, but Seattle takes high talent guys who just need a little coaching. As to his role - Seattle has always been better when they have plenty of bodies contributing on the DL. He could also provide some much needed pressure up the middle. As for the media - I've seen him rated in the top 10 and as far down as the 3rd round. I won't give this an A grade yet (cbssports did), but I do think that DL was the Hawks top need and a player with pass rush ability coming from the DT is very sorely needed. B+

#58 - Ethan Pocic, C/G LSU

This shouldn't surprise anyone, really, it shouldn't. He's a highly intellegent, highly versitile player who plays to finish off blocks. I read that he had something like 132 knock down blocks last season in 12 games. People have been pining for the Breno Giacomini type player on the line - and Pocic could very well be that player. I'm not sure he's a day one starter, but the issues with him are very easy to coach out. Britt is also in the final season of his contract and if the team isn't sold on bringing him back, or Joey Hunt replacing him this could be a future pick. B

#90 - Shaquill Griffin, CB UCF

This guy seems perfect for the Pete Carroll vision for a CB. Scouting reports sound an awful lot like what people say about Shead. Being disappointed because he's not King, or Jones, or anyone else is counterproductive. He is the highest selected CB in the Pete Carroll era. The fact that we have had some very good CBs since Pete got here without picking higher than a fourth rounder (until now) is one reason why I didn't think we'd take a CB in the first. Pete doesn't do that. Add to that the fact that the draft is supposed to be the deepest in CBs that we've seen in a while - it isn't any surprise that Carroll/Schneider would look at different positions early and pick up a value pick later. No reason to think that he couldn't produce in our defense, especially since there are definitely spots to be had in the CB position. B

#95 - Delano Hill, S Michigan

I took Hill in the SportsHoopla mock in the 6th, but what do I know (I picked Russell in the 6th in 2012, and that turned out well for Seattle ). What Hill needs is some time to become what he needs to be, and he'll have that opportunity in Seattle - most likely being on the depth chart below Thomas, Chancellor and McDougald. But, he has the size and speed to be a factor on special teams - and Seattle has lacked that big play special teamer since Lockette was forced into retirement. I know that most would think that picking a special teamer in the 3rd is ridiculous, but once again, special teams is a point of emphasis in Seattle, so much so that many of our starting defensive players also play the special teams. C+

#102 - Nazair Jones, DT North Carolina

Another DT for the rotation, and since I felt we needed to have at least 2 more DTs to be solid contributors for the team, I'm happy the Hawks agree. I feel our defense is best with 4 DEs and 4 DTs sharing the rotation, and as long as we have quality players they'll all get enough snaps to be productive, but not so many as to tire them out. Add to that the fact that Rubin is coming up on his contract year next year, and Jones could be a younger version of what they have there. This pick will allow Seattle to run the defense the way they want to run the defense. B

#106 - Amara Darboh, WR Michigan

This is a solid pick to finish out the 3rd round, and most on here have had nothing but praise for this pick. He would appear to be a faster, stronger version of Kearse, so I agree that it would appear that Seattle is preparing to move on from Kearse after this season. I think a year of training would be a very good thing for Darboh, but more for learning the nuances of the NFL than any perceived lack of talent. B+

People have complained a lot about the Hawks draft (not just here), but in reality what were they expecting to happen. I know that there is this perception that you look for starters in the first three rounds, but really the 1st round is the only round where starters should be expected (and the Hawks traded out of there). Rounds 2 and 3 you want contributors and players who can possibly start in the future. I mean, in reality there's 1 possible starting position up for grabs on the defense (2 if Shead isn't ready week 1). On the other side of the ball, there is only 2 starting position up for grabs and one of those appears to already have all the players in competition in place (RB). What Seattle needed was to fill out the rest of their roster of rotation players, especially on the DL. Which it appears that they have done. It isn't the flashiest draft, but if we win a SB in the near future, this draft could be a very important reason as to why.

 

[flyerhawk]

What John Schneider & Pete Carroll Said About The Six Players The Seahawks Selected On Day 2 Of The 2017 NFL Draft

Some comments from PC and JS about the picks.

 

[Uhsplit]

Typical homer nonsense on here. You cant keep skipping the first round, you just cant. Its catching up to us, it really is. This team hasnt had a really good draft since 2012.

It has been proven without a doubt that the draft is a crap shoot and debunking any player before he has a chance to prove it on the field is foolish and premature.
You forgot that we used to have the #1 run D in the NFL. 2 DT's picked should help that and maybe even get us back to the #1 rated D.
The draft provides ample opportunity for negative focused people to bitch and complain until the players wash those views away. You are in your limelight. Bitch away.
I will root for them until they prove to me they just didn't pan out.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

What John Schneider & Pete Carroll Said About The Six Players The Seahawks Selected On Day 2 Of The 2017 NFL Draft

Some comments from PC and JS about the picks.

Listening to Pete and John after a draft always makes me more optimistic about the draft. You know they put a ton of work into scouting these guys and it's nice to hear them give their thoughts about what they like about a prospect and how he might fit in.

 

[flyerhawk]

Listening to Pete and John after a draft always makes me more optimistic about the draft. You know they put a ton of work into scouting these guys and it's nice to hear them give their thoughts about what they like about a prospect and how he might fit in.

I agree. For me, these guys have so much capital when it comes to drafts that I have a really hard time criticizing their player choices. I always feel that their draft strategy is part of a clear plan rather than just waiting to see what falls to them and taking the BPA.

Their whole stated draft strategy makes a ton of sense to me. Rather than focusing on one guy they focus on a number of guys and they look to see how many guys are still available that are slotted at their draft spot. If there are numerous guys slotted then they will trade down to a point where they can still get one of the guys they want and accumulate more picks. Sometimes they will see an available player that has dropped well below where the slotted him and they feel they need to move up to get him. That happened with Lockett a couple of years ago. Sounds like it almost happened with Pucic.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Malik McDowell, DE/DT
I get the pick, it's no surprise to me. Malik McDowell is a gifted player. He has freakish size/strength, plays with a good motor (I'll get to more on this later), and can play inside or outside. He's a matchup nightmare for O-Lineman that don't have flawless technique and coupled with Bennett/Avril it could be an absolutely horrifying pass rush to face for a QB. THAT SAID, McDowell's head is NOT in the game. He was one of the worst interviewers, didn't really care to work on technique or improve his game at college, and appeared to take some plays off. IF Carroll can get him motivated it's a great pick, but I'll give that 50/50...
Grade: C (C+ with the trade down). I can't give any boom/bust prospect anything higher than the average. It'll likely be an F or an A+ 2-3 years from now in re-grades.

Ethan Pocic, C
Huh? I don't get this at all. Ethan played all along the line at LSU but he was dominantly center, which is one of the few (if any) bright spots on Seattle's line. He also does not have prototypical center size at 6'7" so that makes me think Cable/Carroll want to shift him to guard or eventually tackle if he figures out the technique. Great... ANOTHER f'ing lineman to shift. Even then, Pocic is not a 'power blocker', he gets bullied by guys with better strength and technique. McDowell for example would blow him out of the water if he actually cares to.
Grade: C+. It's a lineman so sure... whatever. Just better picks available IMO.

Shaq Griffin, CB
This was the one bright spot so far of the draft. Griffin should immediately be competing for a starter position. He's tall at 6'0" and change, athletic, and has some decent weight behind him (Kelly Jennings he is not).
Grade: A. I love the pick, makes sense, not a reach, Shaq can be a great #2 with possible #1 upside.

Delano Hill, SS
HUH!? Hill was a 5th or 6th rounder so I have no clue why we felt the need to blow a 3rd on him, especially with better corners on the board. Hill is a liability in pass coverage, he's stiff, does not turn to cover the run much... he'll get torched if he's left 1 on 1. That said, Seattle has ET and Richard Sherman (for now). What they have lacked with the injuries in the secondary and the questionable pass rush since the SBOWL is that roaming SS in the middle part of the field looking to lay out hits. Because that is ALL Hill can do at the moment. One trick pony (as of the draft time) in the 3rd round at a position that's STACKED this year? Hmm...
Grade: D+. I guess Seattle is looking for a Kam replacement to play the run.... but we could've taken Hill way later or even with the early 4th. Why here?

Nazzir Jones, DT
Eh I'm all for stocking up in D-Lineman. Our line looked gassed at times last year. That said, Nazzir Jones' only current talent is stopping the run. That's fine and all, but didn't we draft Reed to do the exact same thing last year? I guess Seattle was not their usual #1 in rushing yards allowed and they've never really found the replacement for Red Bryant.... Nazzir stops the run decently (at least at the college level), but he's a complete liability in pass rush, so if Seattle 'guesses' the opposing play wrong, he's basically dead weight on the line. He also tested pretty poorly at the combine, so it's another McDowell situation.... although without anything NEAR Malik's potential.
Grade: C. Another project player, can't give it anything more. Fills some sort of immediate need, but it's Jarran Reed all over again, with less upside.

Amara Darboh, WR
I actually like this pick. Unlike the two defensive lineman we drafted, Darboh tested great at the combine. He's athletic, runs great/crisp routes. He's going to have to work on drops and getting off press coverage, but for a 3rd round WR you'd expect some things to work on. It's also a decent sized target for Wilson and it seems like the guy has a good head on his shoulders.
Grade: B. Seattle is decently stacked at WR with Jimmy Graham in the mix, so if Darboh can fix some mechanics he could see playing time in a couple years. Eventually we'll need a replacement if Kearse/Richardson leave, and Baldwin is 30 after this season. He'll start to slow down a little.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

People have complained a lot about the Hawks draft (not just here), but in reality what were they expecting to happen. I know that there is this perception that you look for starters in the first three rounds, but really the 1st round is the only round where starters should be expected (and the Hawks traded out of there). Rounds 2 and 3 you want contributors and players who can possibly start in the future. I mean, in reality there's 1 possible starting position up for grabs on the defense (2 if Shead isn't ready week 1). On the other side of the ball, there is only 2 starting position up for grabs and one of those appears to already have all the players in competition in place (RB). What Seattle needed was to fill out the rest of their roster of rotation players, especially on the DL. Which it appears that they have done. It isn't the flashiest draft, but if we win a SB in the near future, this draft could be a very important reason as to why.

I think the issue I have with this years draft, is it's a lot of boom/bust prospects or guys that are VERY one dimensional. I get you're not going to snag a ridiculous starter in round 3, but some of the guys they grabbed have some GLARING issues with their game. McDowell is great, IF he cares which is probably 50/50 at this point. Then Pocic will auto get shifted to another position because Britt has center locked up for now. Granted he played other line positions but most of it was at Center.

Just seems outside of Griffin and Darboh that all the players we took either have glaring weaknesses with one thing they do well (maybe that's enough, since we love our run/pass packages and play nickel a ton) or a MAJOR question marks in terms of work ethic and how well they interviewed (both lineman were terrible interviews... that's why they dropped even more).

 

[WizardHawk]

1st-3rd should be starters for the most part but i did not say they would be starters. DL they needed bodies for depth they got them but a stud starter? nah not likely. CB/S starter drafted? nope. WR i think they got Kearse's replacement so yeah i will go there He has to beat out Kearse and i believe he can then you got Baldwin the rookie and Richardson till Lockett is 100%. a Center ? yeah he wont beat out Britt, Guard or tackle for Pocic? maybe but that just goes to show how bad our oline is, Lamp would have been a better pick than Pocic and he was theirs at 34. I feel a highly recruited High school Olineman could start on our oline though so thats not saying much.

I love big splashy names as much as the next guy, but just look at the history of our draft picks, what rounds they came in, and what success/failure they had. You MUST do this to even begin to evaluate this class. I'll help you (And really the others struggling with this batch so far) out.

Seattle Seahawks All-Time Draft History | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Seattle has one first round pick prior to Ifedi still on the team: Earl Thomas. Fact.

Now they don't get many 1st with all the trading they love to do, but Carpenter, Okung, and Irvin were all 1st rounders. One bust, one inconsistent, and one underachieving based on round value.

Michael in the 2nd was a pure bust.

Look at that list at some of the starting talent they have taken in the last 6 drafts that were in rounds 2-5. More busts than pro bowlers, but that's the nature of this thing. You also have some of the best players on this team coming from those rounds.

It's still way too early to declare anything about last years picks, more or less this years.

There is no fan of this team that isn't frustrated with the lack of improvement of the offensive line. Not all agree on the blame for that or even just how bad that line really is overall, but no one is satisfied with it. And their history of drafting/developing line isn't very good. It's been their glaring weak spot to be sure. However their track record of taking 1-3 round line and building them isn't any better than mid to later rounders either. There is no saying that Lamp or the few other talked about linemen would have been all that much better. History doesn't support that. And those that know the draft are quick to point out this wasn't a very good draft for line in general. Being the prettiest turd in the shitter doesn't suddenly make you a probowler.

 

[WizardHawk]

I think the issue I have with this years draft, is it's a lot of boom/bust prospects or guys that are VERY one dimensional. I get you're not going to snag a ridiculous starter in round 3, but some of the guys they grabbed have some GLARING issues with their game. McDowell is great, IF he cares which is probably 50/50 at this point. Then Pocic will auto get shifted to another position because Britt has center locked up for now. Granted he played other line positions but most of it was at Center.

Just seems outside of Griffin and Darboh that all the players we took either have glaring weaknesses with one thing they do well (maybe that's enough, since we love our run/pass packages and play nickel a ton) or a MAJOR question marks in terms of work ethic and how well they interviewed (both lineman were terrible interviews... that's why they dropped even more).

I've seen lots of comments of this type about that particular pick. Just because he played center in college doesn't mean any team in the NFL would naturally plug him in there at the pro level. Aren't there quite a few guys that played center that end up as guards at the next level? Center is the captain of the line. You get a guy that was obviously capable of doing anything asked of him at that level and was trusted enough to run that line. But that's college, not the pros. And few teams at the college level really runs pro style offenses anymore so none of them translate directly to a NFL line slot.

Britt was both a guard and tackle in college, but never a center from what I can tell. They have now sort of found a home for him at that position and people are upset that a guy that played all 3, but ended as a center was picked up? I don't get it. It's obvious he's not likely to end up at center for us and if he was it would mean he's better than Britt at it should make everyone really happy because Britt isn't bad at it. Whichever of them ends up not the center is still likely an improvement over what they had last year. We all want like Dallas quality of line play, but at this point just improving is about all we can reasonably expect and there is no way to tell if they will until they go play. History shows even their high level picks for that position have turned out as busts way more often than not.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I've seen lots of comments of this type about that particular pick. Just because he played center in college doesn't mean any team in the NFL would naturally plug him in there at the pro level. Aren't there quite a few guys that played center that end up as guards at the next level? Center is the captain of the line. You get a guy that was obviously capable of doing anything asked of him at that level and was trusted enough to run that line. But that's college, not the pros. And few teams at the college level really runs pro style offenses anymore so none of them translate directly to a NFL line slot.

Britt was both a guard and tackle in college, but never a center from what I can tell. They have now sort of found a home for him at that position and people are upset that a guy that played all 3, but ended as a center was picked up? I don't get it. It's obvious he's not likely to end up at center for us and if he was it would mean he's better than Britt at it should make everyone really happy because Britt isn't bad at it. Whichever of them ends up not the center is still likely an improvement over what they had last year. We all want like Dallas quality of line play, but at this point just improving is about all we can reasonably expect and there is no way to tell if they will until they go play. History shows even their high level picks for that position have turned out as busts way more often than not.

Eh very true... Just sucks it'll likely take a little time for him to get comfortable at that position and get a bit of new technique down. Totally get Britt is now a center and played very well... took 2 years for him to get there is all I'm saying. Seattle should still be in win now mode, and I don't see immediate help on the line at this point. I thought there was more need for a tackle, certainly not a center first, guard second, and tackle last.

It's all a risk/gamble, I just would've liked Lamp (even though he's a guard) or something with the first 2nd... McDowell is an exciting prospect but SUCH a gamble.

 

[WizardHawk]

Eh very true... Just sucks it'll likely take a little time for him to get comfortable at that position and get a bit of new technique down. Totally get Britt is now a center and played very well... took 2 years for him to get there is all I'm saying. Seattle should still be in win now mode, and I don't see immediate help on the line at this point. I thought there was more need for a tackle, certainly not a center first, guard second, and tackle last.

It's all a risk/gamble, I just would've liked Lamp (even though he's a guard) or something with the first 2nd... McDowell is an exciting prospect but SUCH a gamble.

I was saying all week I'd throw something at the TV if they took any OL with their first pick. They have a strong history of failure drafting line with ANY round pick, so why waste what isn't a top 10 or even top 20 pick on something that doesn't have a much higher probability of actually helping the team? Now I don't know if they did that with who they ended up with there, but any idea that a higher value line would automatically help there entirely ignores their draft history.

Honestly I don't see how they could have a line that is any worse than last year unless injuries just mount up all over the place this year. They have to have hit rock bottom. It just can't get worse. So the question then is how much better can we expect for them to get? What was a reasonable ceiling on how far they could go even with perfect picks? They couldn't have turned into Dallas overnight. The moves they have already made don't excite me and I really don't trust Cable to turn his turds into bars of gold as it is.

To me as long as Cable is in charge of that line and they limit the payroll as low as they do I have seriously lowered my overall expectation out of that unit and simply rely on praying that Wilson doesn't end up with a career ending injury from their incompetence. I have no expectation at all that they will ever become a top 10 unit. Even 15th or 16th best would be their hard ceiling.

 

[WizardHawk]

What should be the question is what does Seattle do with what is really their last mid round pick early today? They have one early 4th round pick and then nothing until early 6th. If the overall expected value drops off from mid to late rounds then hard to say anyone should expect much from those last 4 picks so what position do they go after for this early pick today? I mean of course they don't go after positions, but what slot would you like to see them get as your most position of need? RB Depth? More secondary depth? Another OL prospect? LB given the need to add something there?

If there really was so much secondary talent in this years draft then I wouldn't mind seeing them add something more here, but I'd also like a solid line backer or maybe an overlooked RB.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

What should be the question is what does Seattle do with what is really their last mid round pick early today? They have one early 4th round pick and then nothing until early 6th. If the overall expected value drops off from mid to late rounds then hard to say anyone should expect much from those last 4 picks so what position do they go after for this early pick today? I mean of course they don't go after positions, but what slot would you like to see them get as your most position of need? RB Depth? More secondary depth? Another OL prospect? LB given the need to add something there?

If there really was so much secondary talent in this years draft then I wouldn't mind seeing them add something more here, but I'd also like a solid line backer or maybe an overlooked RB.

Hopefully we'll find a trade partner and snag a 5th out of it...

I'd say we end up drafting an OT. Even though it's the 4th round, Seattle really needs all the competition and prospects possible to shore up that line. They did a good job by signing Joeckel but they still need some more players. They've already taken 2 secondary, 2 D-Lineman... so I'd expect them to bump that O-Line up to 2 as well coupled with Ethan.

 

[Anointed One]

Let's look at our last Ten, 1st round draft picks...

1. Germain Ifedi - Jury is still out on him but most of the fans here were complaining about him all year last season
2. Bruce Irvin - Solid player for the Hawks... Not a probowler...
3. James Carpenter - Most here deemed him a bust
4. Russell Okung - Solid player, never lived up to expectations...
5. Earl Thomas - A definite hit in the draft... One of the top players at his position in the NFL...
6. Aaron Curry - One of the biggest busts in Hawks history
7. Lawrence Jackson - Who? Bust...
8. Kelly Jennings - Below average player that couldn't cut it in the NFL... 6 years only had 2 INT's...
9. Chris Spencer - Nothing spectacular...
10. Marcus Tubbs - Bust... Only played 4 years...

Out of the last 10 picks, only Earl Thomas was an All Pro, Pro Bowler player... Okung did make the Probowl one year as well... Saying we have to build our team with 1st round picks and we're missing the boat w/out doing so isn't using common sense imo... Our 2nd and 3rd round picks have been better...

 

[blstoker]

What should be the question is what does Seattle do with what is really their last mid round pick early today? They have one early 4th round pick and then nothing until early 6th. If the overall expected value drops off from mid to late rounds then hard to say anyone should expect much from those last 4 picks so what position do they go after for this early pick today? I mean of course they don't go after positions, but what slot would you like to see them get as your most position of need? RB Depth? More secondary depth? Another OL prospect? LB given the need to add something there?

I like a lot of players still there:

Carl Lawson, DE Auburn
Jake Butt, TE Michigan
Brian Hill, RB Wyoming


There's more, but I have to go pick up a UHaul.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Let's look at our last Ten, 1st round draft picks...

1. Germain Ifedi - Jury is still out on him but most of the fans here were complaining about him all year last season
2. Bruce Irvin - Solid player for the Hawks... Not a probowler...
3. James Carpenter - Most here deemed him a bust
4. Russell Okung - Solid player, never lived up to expectations...
5. Earl Thomas - A definite hit in the draft... One of the top players at his position in the NFL...
6. Aaron Curry - One of the biggest busts in Hawks history
7. Lawrence Jackson - Who? Bust...
8. Kelly Jennings - Below average player that couldn't cut it in the NFL... 6 years only had 2 INT's...
9. Chris Spencer - Nothing spectacular...
10. Marcus Tubbs - Bust... Only played 4 years...

Out of the last 10 picks, only Ear Thomas was an All Pro, Pro Bowler player... Okung did make the Probowl one year as well... Saying we have to build our team with 1st round picks and we're missing the boat w/out doing so isn't using common sense imo... Our 2nd and 3rd picks have been better...

Who is saying we have to build this team out of 1st round picks? lol... (seriously kind of want to know without going and reading through all the posts).

And Tubbs was really too bad. He was playing amazing and just kept getting injured. Okung/Tubbs I lump in the same category. IMO they were hits, but injuries are injuries. Carpenter eventually became one of the top guards according to PFF at New York AFTER getting his fat contract... makes me wonder if Cable is really the guy. Irvin was a great player for us, IMO well worth the mid 1st rounder.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

I went back and looked at our draft thread from 2013. It's pretty entertaining when you can look through the prism of time and see who was right and who was wrong about our draft picks.

To remind you; there was mixed reaction to Christine Michael. Some good some bad, overall he's still in the NFL and he's done ok for himself. Not a superstar but he's still employed. Then there were a ton of Hawk fans in 2013 that wanted Matt Barkley and Quinton Patton, both of which turned out to be busts so we should be happy we didn't get what we wanted there. And then a lot of us were claiming Jesse Williams was probably the best pick of the draft for us. lol. He never played in a single game. Some of us were saying that Chris Harper could be the next Anquon Boldin. Mmmm, not so much. We also got Luke Willson and Tharold Simon with late picks in that draft and they turned out to be great value for us. So all I'm saying is to relax about our picks because it will be years before we know how they work out.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

I was ALL over Tharold Simon... completely wrong on that one. I also thought Christine Michael would be a Beast Mode replacement... woops.

As for Jesse Williams, IMO it was a GREAT pick if he could get past the health issues (guy got cancer for Christ sake). He was a top 10 talent before the injury his senior year.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

[Let's look at our last five, 1st round draft picks...

1. Germain Ifedi - Jury is still out on him but most of the fans here were complaining about him all year last season To early to say except he was an immediate starter and that's what you want out of 1st round pick IMO
2. Bruce Irvin - Solid player for the Hawks... Not a probowler... Considering they traded back for him and picked up a 4th round pick, think he turned out to be real decent and a good pick.
3. James Carpenter - Most here deemed him a bust yet was the best OL in that years draft IMO
4. Russell Okung - Solid player, never lived up to expectations...due to injuries, was actually a no brainer pick IMO
5. Earl Thomas - A definite hit in the draft... One of the top players at his position in the NFL...