Top Three Most Poorly Operated NBA Franchises

[wazzu31]

"I am probably drunk"

I was drank while I wrote that and Apple auto corrects it to drunk. Blame Apple not the user.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I guess one for me which is a bit of a tough sell maybe after 4 straight finals is the Cavs. Lebron growing up in Akron changes that, but how much of that do we put on the Cavs front office?

Getting the #1 pick 15 or whatever years ago for Lebron has been their only saving grace. Their moves (Shaq, Mo, old Jameson, West etc) is why he left.

And while Kyrie was a fine choice, I don't think he'd be there long if their corps was him, Wiggins, Waiters, Bennett and Thompson with the free agent busts they were getting.

The coaching move, when there were rumblings Lebron might come back if things were smoothed over seemed an odd choice too with Blatt from the start and as a head coach, not sure I'd call Lue a great one either, even if he beat the best record team in NBA history.

The saddest thing is they've not been cheap. This hasn't been a team, with or without Lebron that doesn't spend money. They've been throwing money for years at that roster. And I get you want to build around Lebron's talents, but when Lebron wasn't playing they were the worst team in the league. And the big spending (Jarrett Jack and Bynum) to give Kyrie a contender when Lebron left was a joke.

Then they literally paved the way for Lebron to get to LA with nothing in return... That was amazing.

The knicks are another that I would put there. I know NY fans were hyped for Phil Jackson, but come on, unless he's coaching... The Isiah Thomas saga... Picking hero ball with Melo as their cornerstone right as the NBA is transitioning away from it. The huge Bargnani deal for a big that can't defend or rebound. The washed ups (Rose, Noah, Lee). And to be in one of the top markets and flub the FA deals or unable to get them is becoming just sad.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The fact the Cavs were gifted a generational superstar is a point...sure but to say "Kyrie was a fine choice" leads me to kinda see where that was headed. There have been plenty of top choices that are no where near Kyrie.

The trade for Love shored up a spot and drafting TT. The trade for JR Smith etc....were upgrades over what LeBron had the first go around.

It just seems silly to list the Cavs anywhere near this list.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Knicks
Hornets
Knicks

 

[SoCalWizFan]

To me where the Wizards really set themselves back many years started in the mid 90's. At one point they had Webber, Sheed, and Howard. (And an ok but not great Calvert Cheaney)

They traded themselves into mediocrity from that dealing for Strickland and Richmond. Then they did the same thing trading Rip for stackhouse.


They're literally the poster child for why you don't deal young talent for vets on the wrong side of 30.

Those were all deals when Abe Pollin owned the team & Wes Unseld was the GM. Pollin was loyal to a fault w/ Unseld since he was such a great player. Subsequently he sucked as both a coach & GM for the organization.

The transition period involved Michael Jordan in the FO & he was awful. This transitioned into Grunfeld becoming GM in 2003 & he has made the same type of bad of moves as Unseld. Ted Leonsis become primary owner later on & he is as loyal to Grunfeld as Pollin was to Unseld.

Grunfeld just has to go - period. The Wizards most recently appear to be in the terrible position of barely making the playoffs where they are not good enough to advance yet not bad enough to get high draft picks. The contracts of Wall, Beal & Porter just hamstring them from making any moves to improve the team. IMO - they should keep Beal at all costs & make everyone else expendable. However that is tough since a contract for someone like Wall makes him practically untradeable. Oh well.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

The fact the Cavs were gifted a generational superstar is a point...sure but to say "Kyrie was a fine choice" leads me to kinda see where that was headed. There have been plenty of top choices that are no where near Kyrie.

The trade for Love shored up a spot and drafting TT. The trade for JR Smith etc....were upgrades over what LeBron had the first go around.

It just seems silly to list the Cavs anywhere near this list.

I should just leave this with saying, when you are bragging about the JR Smith pickup as one of the top moves for the Cavs franchise the past 15 years, it's probably not a good sign. I mean 8 points a game an occasionally knowing the score isn't exactly amazing. What is that number again? 15 mil this year, 16 mil next? Yeah, lets brag on that one.


And Kyrie was a fine choice. Did they get the best player in the draft with the best pick? No. Did they get a guy they were able to win with when Lebron wasn't there? No. A great choice would be the best player with the best pick. A fine choice is a top 5 one with the best pick.


Your statement comes down to their picks not being bad because once they almost got the best player with Kyrie once. Despite having the best grouping of elite picks in a short time arguably in NBA history. And what were they able to do with that and Lebron? 4-20 record team when Lebron sat, and now playing for the #1 overall pick. Sure they got TT instead of Kawhi. That's what you are bragging about? Having the current roster today instead of Lilliard, Kawhi, Giannis, and Embiid to put with Lebron?

3 straight years with a top 4 pick and two #1 picks and couldn't get a top 10 player of any of those drafts. When has a team in the history of the league ever had that much draft capital and been so bad? Ever? The draft before had the 1st and 4th picks and got the 3rd best player and one in the 10-15 range. When do they ever draft up? Get the guy better than the pick?

Even their later picks. 2011 had the 32nd overall pick as well and took the worst player of the top 46 picks. 2012 had 3 picks including back to back ones... And the pick after that... Draymond Green. And then they traded the one who looked good, Jae Crowder for Zeller... lol. It's like they knew he could be something so they had to make a deal to come out worse. 2013 they got Karasev. Next handful of picks had Snell, Dieng, Plumlee and Gobert. In the first round of that draft, 3 players didn't make 2000 NBA minutes. The last pick, and the two Cavs picks. 2014 was Joe Harris, who they traded rather than developed and took ahead of Jokic.



I think just the fact of how low you set the bar there says all you need about where that management belongs. Without LBJ falling into their lap... TWICE, they are easily the worst team in the league the past 20 years. I think that combined with their spending and not being that bad by trying to save money puts them in the conversation.

Got Dion Waiters, who didn't even start in college over Drummond or Lilliard.

They got Bennett over Antetokounpo (or practically anyone else in that draft).

And got a great PG who was almost the best player in the draft for 6 years and saw the writing on the wall with that teams management that Lebron was the only thing they did well.

What about that roster or what they've done outside of Lebron have you liked?

Once they had Lebron they used that next years top 10 pick for Luke Jackson and his 700 minute NBA career over Al Jefferson.

The 6th overall pick for Dejuan Wagner instead of Stoudemire or Nene or anyone? The Diop pick with jefferson and Joe Johnson on the board?

I can think of four instances where Cleveland drafted better than their spot in the past 20 years:
Andre Miller who they traded for Darius freaking Miles a few seasons in...
Carlos Boozer who they completely bungled and lost.
Brendan Haywood... Who they traded for Michael Doleac on draft night (got 4 points a game for 1 season from him).
And Jamal Crawford who they traded for Chris Mihm...

So we are adding a historic flub on the most high picks in a short time, combined with a historic flub on trading away what ends up being their best value picks of the past 20 years. Not some of them. ALL OF THEM.

Which of course makes sense when you wonder "how come with all that draft capital and all that spending, of all the teams not to start Lebron James in games, we have the worst record in the league"

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I should just leave this with saying, when you are bragging about the JR Smith pickup as one of the top moves for the Cavs franchise the past 15 years, it's probably not a good sign. I mean 8 points a game an occasionally knowing the score isn't exactly amazing. What is that number again? 15 mil this year, 16 mil next? Yeah, lets brag on that one.


And Kyrie was a fine choice. Did they get the best player in the draft with the best pick? No. Did they get a guy they were able to win with when Lebron wasn't there? No. A great choice would be the best player with the best pick. A fine choice is a top 5 one with the best pick.


Your statement comes down to their picks not being bad because once they almost got the best player with Kyrie once. Despite having the best grouping of elite picks in a short time arguably in NBA history. And what were they able to do with that and Lebron? 4-20 record team when Lebron sat, and now playing for the #1 overall pick. Sure they got TT instead of Kawhi. That's what you are bragging about? Having the current roster today instead of Lilliard, Kawhi, Giannis, and Embiid to put with Lebron?

3 straight years with a top 4 pick and two #1 picks and couldn't get a top 10 player of any of those drafts. When has a team in the history of the league ever had that much draft capital and been so bad? Ever? The draft before had the 1st and 4th picks and got the 3rd best player and one in the 10-15 range. When do they ever draft up? Get the guy better than the pick?

Even their later picks. 2011 had the 32nd overall pick as well and took the worst player of the top 46 picks. 2012 had 3 picks including back to back ones... And the pick after that... Draymond Green. And then they traded the one who looked good, Jae Crowder for Zeller... lol. It's like they knew he could be something so they had to make a deal to come out worse. 2013 they got Karasev. Next handful of picks had Snell, Dieng, Plumlee and Gobert. In the first round of that draft, 3 players didn't make 2000 NBA minutes. The last pick, and the two Cavs picks. 2014 was Joe Harris, who they traded rather than developed and took ahead of Jokic.



I think just the fact of how low you set the bar there says all you need about where that management belongs. Without LBJ falling into their lap... TWICE, they are easily the worst team in the league the past 20 years. I think that combined with their spending and not being that bad by trying to save money puts them in the conversation.

Got Dion Waiters, who didn't even start in college over Drummond or Lilliard.

They got Bennett over Antetokounpo (or practically anyone else in that draft).

And got a great PG who was almost the best player in the draft for 6 years and saw the writing on the wall with that teams management that Lebron was the only thing they did well.

What about that roster or what they've done outside of Lebron have you liked?

Once they had Lebron they used that next years top 10 pick for Luke Jackson and his 700 minute NBA career over Al Jefferson.

The 6th overall pick for Dejuan Wagner instead of Stoudemire or Nene or anyone? The Diop pick with jefferson and Joe Johnson on the board?

I can think of four instances where Cleveland drafted better than their spot in the past 20 years:
Andre Miller who they traded for Darius freaking Miles a few seasons in...
Carlos Boozer who they completely bungled and lost.
Brendan Haywood... Who they traded for Michael Doleac on draft night (got 4 points a game for 1 season from him).
And Jamal Crawford who they traded for Chris Mihm...

So we are adding a historic flub on the most high picks in a short time, combined with a historic flub on trading away what ends up being their best value picks of the past 20 years. Not some of them. ALL OF THEM.

Which of course makes sense when you wonder "how come with all that draft capital and all that spending, of all the teams not to start Lebron James in games, we have the worst record in the league"

How many teams have made 5 nba finals in the last eleven years?

The discussion is worst franchises. And yes JR Smith was a great pickup. They won the trade for Love. Etc..Kyrie was the best player for his slot. No one saw Kawhi as a top 5 guy so you can't go there. He's better than Klay. Better than Butler. And sure they overdrafted TT slightly but if we redraft he probably still goes top ten. They could've busted with Derrrick Williams, Jan Vesley etc..

So let's look at the 2016 NBA CHAMPS

LeBron (drafted and then reacquired)
Kyrie (drafted)
Love (traded for Bennet and Wiggins)
TT (drafted see above)
JR Smith and Shumpert traded for Dion Waiters AND a first rounder
Channing Frye for Varejao and cap relief
Richard Jefferson off the trash heap
Matt Deladova undrafted and home grown
Mo Williams cheap free agent
Mozgov acquired with OKC Thunder pick from above



Looks to me like they won on every single one of those deals no?

Worst front office?

That's laughably dumb.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

How many teams have made 5 nba finals in the last eleven years?

The discussion is worst franchises. And yes JR Smith was a great pickup. They won the trade for Love. Etc..Kyrie was the best player for his slot. No one saw Kawhi as a top 5 guy so you can't go there. He's better than Klay. Better than Butler. And sure they overdrafted TT slightly but if we redraft he probably still goes top ten. They could've busted with Derrrick Williams, Jan Vesley etc..

So let's look at the 2016 NBA CHAMPS

LeBron (drafted and then reacquired)
Kyrie (drafted)
Love (traded for Bennet and Wiggins)
TT (drafted see above)
JR Smith and Shumpert traded for Dion Waiters AND a first rounder
Channing Frye for Varejao and cap relief
Richard Jefferson off the trash heap
Matt Deladova undrafted and home grown
Mo Williams cheap free agent
Mozgov acquired with OKC Thunder pick from above



Looks to me like they won on every single one of those deals no?

Worst front office?

That's laughably dumb.

Let me make this clear. Just because you made the move and had someone on your roster when you won a ring, doesn't mean you made the right move. Just because Darko won a ring in Detroit doesn't mean they made the better move with him instead of Wade, Bosh, or Melo. Because that's what you are trying to prove here. Darko>Dwyane Wade. And then call an opinion other than that "laughably dumb"???

Laughably dumb is saying you'd rather have JR Smith than Lilliard or Drummond. Laughably dumb is saying you'd rather have TT than Kawhi. Laughably dumb is saying you'd rather have Love than Giannis AND Embiid.

You really are going to make that your claim aren't you... WOW.



Ok, lets see what all that great talent without Lebron has done and you can enlighten me on what you like about it.

97-231 with 3 times finishing with the top pick in the draft in 4 years without Lebron when he left, WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE IN THAT SPAN.

4-20 record when he returned and wasn't playing in those 4 years. WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE IN THAT SPAN.

In a 11-42 season now that he's gone again. a half game from NY for the WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR.

That's what you are bragging about? A pace for 23 wins a year when Lebron isn't out there with the best draft capital in NBA history to make something?

That's right. of all 30 teams when Lebron hasn't been their starter, even with all that huge capital, they've been the worst. Not 3rd worst. Not 2nd worst. DEAD LAST.


But yeah, their front office is great since they didn't relocate somewhere else further from Akron. Because if you think he returned for ANY reason other than that is where he grew up you are more delusional than I thought.



And don't get me wrong.. I LOVED watching the Cavs with Lebron and his championship was one of the best moments for me as a basketball fan.

But to say that front offices moves are ANYTHING but a disaster is a joke. Drafting him was a no-brainer when they were bad enough to get that pick. And now twice he's left because they can't put a roster together that can do anything but LOSE and LOSE A LOT, and they were the team that made the move to help him leave. That team should have 4 or 5 championships by now. Instead he had to play the greatest finals of any player in NBA history to get a single one. And once again exposed those moves for what they are. Moves that a cellar team in the NBA makes which is especially bad considering that slew of picks and how much they've spent.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Let me make this clear. Just because you made the move and had someone on your roster when you won a ring, doesn't mean you made the right move. Just because Darko won a ring in Detroit doesn't mean they made the better move with him instead of Wade, Bosh, or Melo. Because that's what you are trying to prove here. Darko>Dwyane Wade. And then call an opinion other than that "laughably dumb"???

Laughably dumb is saying you'd rather have JR Smith than Lilliard or Drummond. Laughably dumb is saying you'd rather have TT than Kawhi. Laughably dumb is saying you'd rather have Love than Giannis AND Embiid.

You really are going to make that your claim aren't you... WOW.



Ok, lets see what all that great talent without Lebron has done and you can enlighten me on what you like about it.

97-231 with 3 times finishing with the top pick in the draft in 4 years without Lebron when he left, WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE IN THAT SPAN.

4-20 record when he returned and wasn't playing in those 4 years. WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE IN THAT SPAN.

In a 11-42 season now that he's gone again. a half game from NY for the WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR.

That's what you are bragging about? A pace for 23 wins a year when Lebron isn't out there with the best draft capital in NBA history to make something?

That's right. of all 30 teams when Lebron hasn't been their starter, even with all that huge capital, they've been the worst. Not 3rd worst. Not 2nd worst. DEAD LAST.


But yeah, their front office is great since they didn't relocate somewhere else further from Akron. Because if you think he returned for ANY reason other than that is where he grew up you are more delusional than I thought.

I stopped reading at making the claim I'd rather have Smith over Drummond or Lillard or Love over Embiid or Giannis

We just randomly throwing players out there without context for how they are acquired?

They built the team for LeBron. You remove LeBron you get a much worse team. Not a difficult concept.

But I've already shown you that they did a nice job building the pieces around the 2016 champions. That's good for at least a mediocre rating for a FO and they won all four trades involving the players on that team.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

They fared much worse building last year's team but I also think Lue did a terrible job managing that teams minutes.

 

[dtgold88]

I guess one for me which is a bit of a tough sell maybe after 4 straight finals is the Cavs. Lebron growing up in Akron changes that, but how much of that do we put on the Cavs front office?

Getting the #1 pick 15 or whatever years ago for Lebron has been their only saving grace. Their moves (Shaq, Mo, old Jameson, West etc) is why he left.

And while Kyrie was a fine choice, I don't think he'd be there long if their corps was him, Wiggins, Waiters, Bennett and Thompson with the free agent busts they were getting.

The coaching move, when there were rumblings Lebron might come back if things were smoothed over seemed an odd choice too with Blatt from the start and as a head coach, not sure I'd call Lue a great one either, even if he beat the best record team in NBA history.

The saddest thing is they've not been cheap. This hasn't been a team, with or without Lebron that doesn't spend money. They've been throwing money for years at that roster. And I get you want to build around Lebron's talents, but when Lebron wasn't playing they were the worst team in the league. And the big spending (Jarrett Jack and Bynum) to give Kyrie a contender when Lebron left was a joke.

Then they literally paved the way for Lebron to get to LA with nothing in return... That was amazing.

I think the willing to spend matters a ton. If Gilbert doesn't prove he'd spend the first time, you think Lebron trusts him enough AND overlooks the letter to return? No doubt being from Akron helps a ton, but isn't PG from LA?

Getting Kyrie was also Gilbert's willingness to spend as he took on Baron Davis' bloated deal. Never mind while not a stud, TT is a solid piece for a contender. To say the moves for Jamison, Shaq etc. were why he left is absurd as Lebron wanted them both. He left because he wanted to play with his buds last time.....this time because he wanted to be in LA. Didn't join or leave a team because of the FO.

 

[dtgold88]

How many teams have made 5 nba finals in the last eleven years?

The discussion is worst franchises. And yes JR Smith was a great pickup. They won the trade for Love. Etc..Kyrie was the best player for his slot. No one saw Kawhi as a top 5 guy so you can't go there. He's better than Klay. Better than Butler. And sure they overdrafted TT slightly but if we redraft he probably still goes top ten. They could've busted with Derrrick Williams, Jan Vesley etc..

So let's look at the 2016 NBA CHAMPS

LeBron (drafted and then reacquired)
Kyrie (drafted)
Love (traded for Bennet and Wiggins)
TT (drafted see above)
JR Smith and Shumpert traded for Dion Waiters AND a first rounder
Channing Frye for Varejao and cap relief
Richard Jefferson off the trash heap
Matt Deladova undrafted and home grown
Mo Williams cheap free agent
Mozgov acquired with OKC Thunder pick from above



Looks to me like they won on every single one of those deals no?

Worst front office?

That's laughably dumb.

I suspect you are arguing with irrational on that one and it was too long with too much irrational for me to reply.

Some just don't understand the NBA draft. It's the one draft where the teams actually come close to following "expert" picks or mocks for fear of being second guessed. Guys who are drafted 10-15 are getting picked at 4.

Funny you mention DWilliams, as I recall many before the draft saying take him #1 and get the PG (Knight) at 4.

did they blow it on Boozer? Sure, but that was not this regime and that's on Boozer. Not them.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I suspect you are arguing with irrational on that one and it was too long with too much irrational for me to reply.

Some just don't understand the NBA draft. It's the one draft where the teams actually come close to following "expert" picks or mocks for fear of being second guessed. Guys who are drafted 10-15 are getting picked at 4.

Funny you mention DWilliams, as I recall many before the draft saying take him #1 and get the PG (Knight) at 4.

did they blow it on Boozer? Sure, but that was not this regime and that's on Boozer. Not them.

But like I said, with the most draft capital in history in such a short time, they've not once picked the best guy, at times picked the worst guy, and put together a team that was the worst in the league when Lebron wasn't playing.

And the few times they did pick better than expected, then they shipped the guy off on trades that were bad and did that every single time.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I think the willing to spend matters a ton. If Gilbert doesn't prove he'd spend the first time, you think Lebron trusts him enough AND overlooks the letter to return? No doubt being from Akron helps a ton, but isn't PG from LA?

Getting Kyrie was also Gilbert's willingness to spend as he took on Baron Davis' bloated deal. Never mind while not a stud, TT is a solid piece for a contender. To say the moves for Jamison, Shaq etc. were why he left is absurd as Lebron wanted them both. He left because he wanted to play with his buds last time.....this time because he wanted to be in LA. Didn't join or leave a team because of the FO.

That is a good point about the front office not picking the best free agents that gave them the best chance to win. Another thing I think that really lends itself to that poor front office execution. But if I remember right they said they consulted him before pulling off those deals, not that they pulled off those deals because Lebron wanted them.

And while he left to play with friends, he left to win, and lost all confidence Clevelands front office would be able to help him do that. Twice. He wouldn't have gone to Miami or LA if they could put a roster together that wasn't the worst roster in the NBA the second he stepped away.

I mean if it was about just wanting an owner who would spend money, he'd have gone from Miami straight to LA or NY.

And PG is from LA. But are you saying he's as close to LA, doing his work in LA like Lebron has been in Cleveland? I am saying if Lebron was born in any other state there is no 2nd round in Cleveland.

It all seems excuses of why these guys are the losingest roster in the NBA when Lebron isn't there which is still a hard fact to take when they've spent so much and had so many top picks to put it together.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I guess one for me which is a bit of a tough sell maybe after 4 straight finals is the Cavs. Lebron growing up in Akron changes that, but how much of that do we put on the Cavs front office?

Getting the #1 pick 15 or whatever years ago for Lebron has been their only saving grace. Their moves (Shaq, Mo, old Jameson, West etc) is why he left.

And while Kyrie was a fine choice, I don't think he'd be there long if their corps was him, Wiggins, Waiters, Bennett and Thompson with the free agent busts they were getting.

The coaching move, when there were rumblings Lebron might come back if things were smoothed over seemed an odd choice too with Blatt from the start and as a head coach, not sure I'd call Lue a great one either, even if he beat the best record team in NBA history.

The saddest thing is they've not been cheap. This hasn't been a team, with or without Lebron that doesn't spend money. They've been throwing money for years at that roster. And I get you want to build around Lebron's talents, but when Lebron wasn't playing they were the worst team in the league. And the big spending (Jarrett Jack and Bynum) to give Kyrie a contender when Lebron left was a joke.

Then they literally paved the way for Lebron to get to LA with nothing in return... That was amazing.

The knicks are another that I would put there. I know NY fans were hyped for Phil Jackson, but come on, unless he's coaching... The Isiah Thomas saga... Picking hero ball with Melo as their cornerstone right as the NBA is transitioning away from it. The huge Bargnani deal for a big that can't defend or rebound. The washed ups (Rose, Noah, Lee). And to be in one of the top markets and flub the FA deals or unable to get them is becoming just sad.

the stuff about Bynum just shows you really have very little clue what you are talking about.

 

[dtgold88]

They fared much worse building last year's team but I also think Lue did a terrible job managing that teams minutes.

Not a fan of Lue, but no issue with their minutes last season. we aren't talking Thibs here.

 

[dtgold88]

But like I said, with the most draft capital in history in such a short time, they've not once picked the best guy, at times picked the worst guy, and put together a team that was the worst in the league when Lebron wasn't playing.

And the few times they did pick better than expected, then they shipped the guy off on trades that were bad and did that every single time.

Most draft capital in history? Hyperbole much?

And you were shown every member of their title team and how acquired. which pick or deal was a bad one?

Kyrie wasn't the right pick? There were far worse ways to go than TT. Should they have taken Vesely, who went next? wiggins was moved in the Love deal along with bennett. Not a good trade? what about the deadline deals last season that helped them get to the Finals?

They played for 4 straight titles and won one of them. Only lost to a team many think is the best ever. You want to tell me all the success does not make Gilbert or the FO among the best? No argument. But the worst? That's absurd.

 

[dtgold88]

That is a good point about the front office not picking the best free agents that gave them the best chance to win. Another thing I think that really lends itself to that poor front office execution. But if I remember right they said they consulted him before pulling off those deals, not that they pulled off those deals because Lebron wanted them.

And while he left to play with friends, he left to win, and lost all confidence Clevelands front office would be able to help him do that. Twice. He wouldn't have gone to Miami or LA if they could put a roster together that wasn't the worst roster in the NBA the second he stepped away.

I mean if it was about just wanting an owner who would spend money, he'd have gone from Miami straight to LA or NY.

And PG is from LA. But are you saying he's as close to LA, doing his work in LA like Lebron has been in Cleveland? I am saying if Lebron was born in any other state there is no 2nd round in Cleveland.

It all seems excuses of why these guys are the losingest roster in the NBA when Lebron isn't there which is still a hard fact to take when they've spent so much and had so many top picks to put it together.

Since you are going with opinion and guessing, are you aware the Cavs had a deal in place to acquire Bosh, but he said no and the only place all 3 of those guys could play together was Miami? Then, of course, he left Riley to come back to Cleveland as he believed Gilbert would go all in while he had his doubts about Arison.

Gilbert has had a whopping 3.5 seasons with no Lebron. The first 3 started with Lebron's surprise exit. Losing was the plan and here's a newsflash....it worked. You are blaming them for executing a plan that worked, and don't see how absurd that is. It's sad...but comical. Saying a team who has been better than all but 1 the last 4 years did so while ALL moves were "anything but a disaster"? McFly?

 

[dtgold88]

the stuff about Bynum just shows you really have very little clue what you are talking about.

I'm not sure he said anything that didn't seem designed to show he had no clue what he was talking about.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I stopped reading at making the claim I'd rather have Smith over Drummond or Lillard or Love over Embiid or Giannis

We just randomly throwing players out there without context for how they are acquired?

They built the team for LeBron. You remove LeBron you get a much worse team. Not a difficult concept.

But I've already shown you that they did a nice job building the pieces around the 2016 champions. That's good for at least a mediocre rating for a FO and they won all four trades involving the players on that team.

Seriously. 3 first round picks and another two 4th rounders. There's franchises that haven't gotten that much elite draft stock in their entire history, much less in 4 years. And you are bragging they turned it into JR and TT and Love (without getting his low rookie deal, but having to pay him big) and Sexton/Zizic?

I don't even need to debate you when you are pulling this out as their big success...

I agree. It's sickening to think of how much talent was on the board getting taken most of the time just 1 or 2 spots behind where Cleveland would take a bust and how they squandered all that away so poorly. I would just ignore that too and pretend it never happened if I had to defend that front office mess.

And don't give me the "they built for lebron and are all instantly worthless twats the second he left" crap. OKC built for Durant and was competitive when he left. Hou built for Dwight and successful when he left, Chicago built for Jordan and successful when he went to baseball. If Cleveland built for Lebron, they sure sucked at it, because he had to do more than ever to win there.

You know what would help Lebron? A team that wasn't at the bottom of the league in plus minus every time he sat, and thus he needed to keep pushing max minutes. A team where Lebron doesn't have to play 46 minutes in a game, be +7 when he is on the court and still lose by 5 because they let him rest 2 minutes.

Cavs had a -9 rating when Lebron sat last year in the post-season. Which is right where they were most years in the reg season. +8 when he's on the court, -9 when he's off it. To put that in perspective, last year the Pelicans were -7.3 when Davis was out (yes his team gives him more help than Lebrons). The Magic when Aaron Gordon sat were the same -7.3. Seriously, Atlanta, a 24 win team last year was -4.5 without Schroeder. Bad teams can sit their best player and be better than the Cavs when Lebron sat. That's not building for Lebron, that's making him do it all.

So what about losing games when he's not on the floor is built to help him? No, it's just an awful team. They were awful before him, they were awful when he left the first time, they were awful anytime he wasn't on the court when he was there, and their awful again without him.

TT can be an ok pick because Lebron is really great. Sure his per48 minutes last year his opponent scored 8 more points than him and had 3 more assists. But he can lose that position battle consistently because Lebron wins his by so much. Which is fine if he's a 5-10 mil mid 1st round pick. Not fine if you passed on drafting a superstar for him instead and are paying him 18 mil a year.

And won all four trades? One of them literally opened the door for him to get to LA. Another you are really saying you'd like Love over Embiid and Oladipo? Kyrie for Sexton isn't a win either. Come on, lets not get that crazy here.

Yes Smith over Drummond. Or Lilliard. You can't brag about picking up Smith without admitting that they passed on the next best guard and center for him, both who'd been mocked in that range or higher they took Waiters (Drummond and Lilliard). So I'd much rather have him than the tools to trade for JR Smith. I won't back down on that one, I am sorry but my belief is having Drummond or Lilliard is better than adding JR Smith.