Top 32 tournament RF Kaline vs Heilmann

[MilkSpiller22]

I assume you actually compared Heilmann to Kaline, and not to Kiner...

Again, I completely ignore career numbers and career averages. It is much better (IMHO) to look at seasonal buckets instead. This is why I like WAR7 better than WAR.

I called my OPS analysis of the two close (with Heilmann winning) because Kaline had more good seasons (16 to 14). I grant that Heilman had the higher peak seasons. But Kaline's WAR7 is better, so his best 7 seasons were arguably better than Heilmann's 7 best.

Then you factor in the no-contest with the glove...

He had more good seasons because he had more seasons 22 vs 17 seasons...

 

[calsnowskier]

He had more good seasons because he had more seasons 22 vs 17 seasons...

So if Heilmann had played for 30 years he would have had more 120+ seasons than Kaline?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and I love WAR7, and much more than WAR which i despise... But the problem(not really a problem) is that defense is in the mix... It is not good to compare the better offensive seasons because defense is included...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So if Heilmann had played for 30 years he would have had more 120+ seasons than Kaline?

isn't that the point you just used??

 

[calsnowskier]

and I love WAR7, and much more than WAR which i despise... But the problem(not really a problem) is that defense is in the mix... It is not good to compare the better offensive seasons because defense is included...

Fair point. I HATE defensive metrics, especially for older players where they didn't have all the advanced cameras at all games to do the measuring they do today.

 

[calsnowskier]

isn't that the point you just used??

Not at all.

I ignore career numbers because of player like Ricky who clearly played 8 seasons too long. Why should the "tag-on" years count in an argument of best ever?

If Heilman had played an additional 13 years, I think it safe to assume not many of them would have been effective.

But even if he was effective in these years, it doesn't matter. He didn't play them. You can't judge Clemente on his 3001st hit, because he never did it.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

oWAR7- 41.1 to 49- heilman wins

 

[calsnowskier]

oWAR7- 41.1 to 49- heilman wins

I will trust that is accurate (can't find this listed anywhere, so I assume you calc'd it yourself).

Good argument.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I will trust that is accurate (can't find this listed anywhere, so I assume you calc'd it yourself).

Good argument.

i did calculate myself... but it is easy to calculate... just added up each players best 7 oWAR seasons and oWAR is easily found on Baseball-references...

 

[calsnowskier]

i did calculate myself... but it is easy to calculate... just added up each players best 7 oWAR seasons and oWAR is easily found on Baseball-references...

I am aware. Just too lazy (with all this Samardzija shit going down) to add it up myself.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I know there is no perfect defensive metric... I do prefer dWAR because of that... using dWAR, it looks like Kaline had 4 great defensive seasons, and 10 above average seasons... But when a player plays for 22 seasons, that is not even half his career... Ultimately his dWAR is nothing special...