Top 30 Project Review Discussion

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)
16) Randy Johnson (defeated Tris Speaker 16-11)
17) Tris Speaker (defeated Greg Maddux 18-12)
18) Greg Maddux (defeated Albert Pujols 17-9)
19) Joe DiMaggio (defeated Albert Pujols 17-13)
20) Albert Pujols (defeated Pedro Martinez 16-14)
21) Pedro Martinez (defeated Jimmie Foxx 20-10)
22) Jimmie Foxx (defeated Cy Young, Lefty Grove and Christy Mathewson 16-12-2-1)
23) Cy Young (defeated Lefty Grove 17-13)
24) Lefty Grove (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 21-9)
25) Ken Griffey Jr (defeated Alex Rodriguez 14-12)
26) Christy Mathewson (defeated Sandy Koufax and Alex Rodriguez 16-10-5)
27) Frank Robinson (defeated Sandy Koufax 16-10)
28) Sandy Koufax (defeated Alex Rodriguez 17-14)
29) Alex Rodriguez (defeated Johnny Bench, Mel Ott and Clayton Kershaw 15-8-3-1)
30) Johnny Bench (defeated Mel Ott 18-10)

The project is done. How did we do? Where did we get it wrong?

Final thoughts?

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
@Robotech @kcden @jwolt92
@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242 @PolarVortex
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007
@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[msgkings322]

Before we get into it just wanted to say thanks again for organizing this for these months, probably was a bit of hassle and this has been fun

 

[calsnowskier]

We got the top 4 correct, even if the order could be shuffled a bit.

I still think Cobb should have beaten Aaron for the 5 spot, but I would have been fine Aaron at 6, so that certainly falls within the “opinion-zone”.

Rickey was probably SLIGHTLY high, but I don’t think his placement was that bad.

Griffey was WAY high and Clemens was WAY low.

 

[redseat]

We got the top 4 correct, even if the order could be shuffled a bit.

I still think Cobb should have beaten Aaron for the 5 spot, but I would have been fine Aaron at 6, so that certainly falls within the “opinion-zone”.

Rickey was probably SLIGHTLY high, but I don’t think his placement was that bad.

Griffey was WAY high and Clemens was WAY low.

I agree with this

 

[msgkings322]

We got the top 4 correct, even if the order could be shuffled a bit.

I still think Cobb should have beaten Aaron for the 5 spot, but I would have been fine Aaron at 6, so that certainly falls within the “opinion-zone”.

Rickey was probably SLIGHTLY high, but I don’t think his placement was that bad.

Griffey was WAY high and Clemens was WAY low.

I feel like the top 7 sort of have to be those 7 guys but that’s just my opinion

 

[calsnowskier]

I feel like the top 7 sort of have to be those 7 guys but that’s just my opinion

I think Gehrig gets WAY too much ‘story credit”. I think Hornsby or Clemens would have been better there.

 

[msgkings322]

I think Gehrig gets WAY too much ‘story credit”. I think Hornsby or Clemens would have been better there.

Gehrig’s numbers are pretty legit for that slot though...Clemens has the same issue that Bonds does which costs him a couple slots just like it's the reason Williams is above Bonds, and why ARod is much lower than his numbers would put him

 

[steveringo]

I think Henderson is the only one we really put too high - but after some of the discussions out here, I adjusted my internal value greatly... On this list, I'd pick him after the eight people behind him.... Prior to this exercise, he wouldn't have cracked my top 30.

In general, I would still rank starting pitchers higher than what we gave them...


All the rest have good arguments for their placement.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

We got the top 4 correct, even if the order could be shuffled a bit.

I still think Cobb should have beaten Aaron for the 5 spot, but I would have been fine Aaron at 6, so that certainly falls within the “opinion-zone”.

Rickey was probably SLIGHTLY high, but I don’t think his placement was that bad.

Griffey was WAY high and Clemens was WAY low.

Aaron is maybe the trickiest player to place. His career longevity and elite prime longevity are possibly best in baseball. But his eliteness in his best seasons are well below standard for a top 10 player. He really could go anywhere from 5-12 and it would be pretty fair.

 

[packerzrule]

Thanks @calsnowskier for putting this together.

 

[Janus]

As an opinionated article and the format for which it was introduced, I must say well done. I enjoyed the teasing, the stats, the open-air discussions. You are to be commended. Of course, as an opinion piece, my opinions differ a bit from the overall consensus ( fairly played I might add ).
Having been a baseball fan for a long time, I had trouble with some results.
Baseball is the greatest debate of sports, no question. Baseball may not be the king of entertainment anymore but it's a constant, it remains a piece of youth development and world wide interest.

 

[calsnowskier]

Gehrig’s numbers are pretty legit for that slot though...Clemens has the same issue that Bonds does which costs him a couple slots just like it's the reason Williams is above Bonds, and why ARod is much lower than his numbers would put him

I am not recommending he falls off the top 30 altogether, or even that he should have fallen to the 15 neighborhood. But he got a lot of “pop” for a speech he gave. That had NOTHING to do with what happened on the field.

I think there is argument for Williams over Bonds. I don’t subscribe to it, but I acknowledge it is there. Hell, there is argument for Bonds over Mays (I am not there yet, but I think my stance is moving in that direction). Basically, there is enough fuzz around the top 4 (probably outside of Ruth) that I am AOK with any order between them. And Bonds got hurt by the “stink”, but I really don’t think that played as much as some said. If he fell out of the top 4, than OK, but he didn’t.

Clemens was DECIMATED by the “stink”. Imho, he should have been top 10. MAYBE as high as 7.

 

[Clayton]

I think even without the stink Clemens is 12 or 13 for me

Honestly my biggest issue with the whole list is Koufax. If thats Trout or heck even Ott or Nap thats better

 

[calsnowskier]

I think even without the stink Clemens is 12 or 13 for me

Honestly my biggest issue with the whole list is Koufax. If thats Trout or heck even Ott or Nap thats better

I agree re: Koufax, but he is so low on this list that I am not going to pound my fist about it. I think there are probably 10 players or so more worthy, but oh well.

Do you consider Clemens pitcher #1? Or do you agree with the poll that Johnson is pitcher #1?

 

[Clayton]

I agree re: Koufax, but he is so low on this list that I am not going to pound my fist about it. I think there are probably 10 players or so more worthy, but oh well.

Do you consider Clemens pitcher #1? Or do you agree with the poll that Johnson is pitcher #1?

Yeah, I think Walter Johnson is pitcher 1. I think if I was to redo my top 10 its:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Barry Bonds
3. Willie Mays
4. Ted Williams
5. Ty Cobb
6. Walter Johnson
7. Rogers Hornsby
8. Hank Aaron
9. Lou Gehrig
10. Mickey Mantle
11. Stan Musial
12. Roger Clemens
...

But you could sell me on Clemens as high as 8.

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah, I think Walter Johnson is pitcher 1. I think if I was to redo my top 10 its:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Barry Bonds
3. Willie Mays
4. Ted Williams
5. Ty Cobb
6. Walter Johnson
7. Rogers Hornsby
8. Hank Aaron
9. Lou Gehrig
10. Mickey Mantle
11. Stan Musial
12. Roger Clemens
...

But you could sell me on Clemens as high as 8.

I think I like Aaron at 6 and Hornsby at 7. 8 gets a bit fuzzy. Gehrig, Johnson and Clemens I think are legit contenders. And I think that would round out MY top 10…

Ruth
Mays
Bonds (as I said earlier, I am not that far away from moving Bonds up my list)
Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Hornsby
Clemens
Johnson
Gehrig

 

[DHoey]

Cal, you're the man for putting this together. This is the first time i have ever participated in a project like this and really enjoyed it. I consider myself a pretty big fan of baseball, more so the history than current, but this opened my eyes on a few things.

Everyone's rating system is a little different, I appreciate that, I stated multiple times that stats are only part of the equation for me. I enjoy the stories behind the players. I enjoy the banter about why some get docked for this and extra for that.

The most difficult part for me was pitchers vs hitters comparison. Everyday against once every 5 days. The most dominant hitters vs the most dominant pitchers.

Eras vs eras: deadball, lowered mounds, PED's, integration, etc. have all been fun to debate.

Thanks again Cal!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think I like Aaron at 6 and Hornsby at 7. 8 gets a bit fuzzy. Gehrig, Johnson and Clemens I think are legit contenders. And I think that would round out MY top 10…

Ruth
Mays
Bonds (as I said earlier, I am not that far away from moving Bonds up my list)
Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Hornsby
Clemens
Johnson
Gehrig

I really don’t understand the argument for mays over bonds other than the stink. And you don’t consider bonds having stink in your rankings. So I really don’t get the mays over bonds.

I agree with @Clayton in the order of the top 5.

 

[eaglesnut]

Thanks for running this, cal. It was fun to have a reason to look up some of these guys career stats.

Ted Williams highest OBP all-time .482

Ricky Henderson was the career leader in walks until Bonds shattered the record.

(Last number is plate appearances)

1.Barry Bonds (22)...2558... 12606
2.Rickey Henderson+ (25)...2190 ...13346
3.Babe Ruth+ (22)...2062...10628
4.Ted Williams+ (19)...2021...9792
5.Joe Morgan+ (22)...1865...11329
6.Carl Yastrzemski+ (23)...1845...13992
7.Jim Thome+ (22)...1747...10313
8.Mickey Mantle+ (18)...1733...9910
9.Mel Ott+ (22)...1708...11347
10.Frank Thomas+ (19)...1667...10075

 

[LHG]

@calsnowskier , you did a great job on this. Thank you for taking the time to allow a bunch of us to debate the greats of this game. One thing this reinforced to me is that they have been a lot of really good players and I've overlooked some of them. I've sat down and read baseball encyclopedias on the history of the game and still didn't realize how good some players have been.