POLL Top 10 poll: #18 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)
16) Randy Johnson (defeated Tris Speaker 16-11)
17) Tris Speaker (defeated Greg Maddux 18-12)

Who is the #18 player ever? This poll will close Thursday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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[MilkSpiller22]

i put in the same three as i did last time...

my top 2 is pujols and AROD...

and my third is trout... i am not as sold on him being my top, but i want to see which pitchers get chosen...

I may change my third for a pitcher...

which pitcher?? i think my next 2 pitchers are Seaver and Pedro.... Jumping Maddux...
but i really dont know...

 

[calsnowskier]

I am thinking Maddux, Martinez and Pujols. But Robinson, Bench, Young or DiMaggio are all inching into consideration.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am thinking Maddux, Martinez and Pujols. But Robinson, Bench, Young or DiMaggio are all inching into consideration.

bench, and the catcher position is just so difficult to measure... we all know they should be compared differently... but at the same time, no catcher is even close to the offense of the other contenders for a top 20...

so then you basically have to say the entire reason is based on defense... and that is just a lot for me at this point...

 

[calsnowskier]

bench, and the catcher position is just so difficult to measure... we all know they should be compared differently... but at the same time, no catcher is even close to the offense of the other contenders for a top 20...

so then you basically have to say the entire reason is based on defense... and that is just a lot for me at this point...

Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher of all time and he is NEVER in the discussion as best catcher ever. That has to tell you something.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher of all time and he is NEVER in the discussion as best catcher ever. That has to tell you something.

true... but i wonder if piazza played in a different era, if he would have been perceived differently...

 

[LHG]

bench, and the catcher position is just so difficult to measure... we all know they should be compared differently... but at the same time, no catcher is even close to the offense of the other contenders for a top 20...

so then you basically have to say the entire reason is based on defense... and that is just a lot for me at this point...

Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher of all time and he is NEVER in the discussion as best catcher ever. That has to tell you something.

true... but i wonder if piazza played in a different era, if he would have been perceived differently...

Maybe WAR should be considered when talking about catchers. Have you seen the difference in WAR between Bench (75.1) and Piazza (59.5)?

 

[LHG]

Updated for #16 (too high, but okay):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 3
1914 - 4
1915-1917 - 5
1918-1922 - 4
1923-1927 - 5
1928 - 4
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1947 - 2
1948-1950 - 3
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 4
1988-1989 - 5
1990-2003 - 4
2004-2007 - 3
2008-2009 - 1
2010-2024 - 0

Updated for #17 (about time!):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1927 - 6
1928 - 5
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1947 - 2
1948-1950 - 3
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 4
1988-1989 - 5
1990-2003 - 4
2004-2007 - 3
2008-2009 - 1
2010-2024 - 0

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Maybe WAR should be considered when talking about catchers. Have you seen the difference in WAR between Bench (75.1) and Piazza (59.5)?

sure... but war7 is very close... and with the significant difference in dWAR, that tells me Piazza was probably even more valuable...

 

[LHG]

My votes are going Cy Young (1890-1911), Mike Trout (2011-present) and Lefty Grove (1925-1941).

Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (no Cy Young Awards were given during his career)

Bold: ERA 9, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 0, K/BB 8

300-141 W-L
2266/1187 K/BB
457/298 GS/CG
3940.2 IP

Grove was an AL pitcher his whole career so he was going against stacked Yankee lineups regularly.

 

[LHG]

sure... but war7 is very close... and with the significant difference in dWAR, that tells me Piazza was probably even more valuable...

So you subtract dWAR to determine one catcher is better than the other?

 

[Clayton]

I think its DiMaggio, Pujols, and ARod.

The more I keep looking at the pitchers, the more I think Pedro is next. You might be able to sell me on Pedro over ARod if ARod doesnt get support

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So you subtract dWAR to determine one catcher is better than the other?

not what i said... not even close...
there is a 4.1 difference in their WAR7, bench had a 12.7 dWAR in his WAR7, compared to bench's 3.3... that
that is a significant difference...


i think most would agree that they would prefer the better defense at catcher...

but in the context of the posts, where we were talking about offense... it is clear how Piazza was much better... especailly in his WAR7...

and even with all the importance of defense, defensive metrics are still not great... and with Bench being a player from the late 60s and 70s, i dont know how much i trust the actual WAR value...

so, i generally trust oWAR much more than dWAR...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And I know I could have just showed oWAR instead of using a roundabout post. But I wanted to show how much of bench was based on defense compared to piazza.

 

[LHG]

And I know I could have just showed oWAR instead of using a roundabout post. But I wanted to show how much of bench was based on defense compared to piazza.

I brought up WAR because I knew that defense would be accounted for in it. May not be perfect but at least gives an idea of assumed value from defense. We want to rank players based on defense but don't trust anything that shows defensive value. Not sure we should consider defense if we won't at least weigh possible numbers showing defense, imperfect as the numbers could be.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I brought up WAR because I knew that defense would be accounted for in it. May not be perfect but at least gives an idea of assumed value from defense. We want to rank players based on defense but don't trust anything that shows defensive value. Not sure we should consider defense if we won't at least weigh possible numbers showing defense, imperfect as the numbers could be.

No, we should absolutely include defense.

Don’t want context of my post to make it sound like I don’t think defense is important. In fact for catcher it is probably more valuable than offense.

But that is to compare catcher to catcher. When comparing catcher to a player of another position, it is very hard to weigh defense like that.

 

[LHG]

I think its DiMaggio, Pujols, and ARod.

The more I keep looking at the pitchers, the more I think Pedro is next. You might be able to sell me on Pedro over ARod if ARod doesnt get support

I'd put Trout over DiMaggio. Consider a head to head comparison:
Joe DiMaggio (CF) 1936 - 1951 (3 years lost to WWII)

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 13 ASG (AS every year of career)
79.1, 52.1
Bold: R 1, 3B 1, HR 2, RBI 2, TB 3
OPS+ buckets
190 - 0
180 - 2
170 - 1
160 - 1
150 - 2
140 - 2
130 - 1
120 - 1
110 - 1

Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current

3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG
86.2, 65.1
Bold: R 4, RBI 1, BB 3, OBP 4, SLG 3, OPS 4, TB 1, WAR 5
OPS+ buckets
190 - 1
180 - 2
170 - 4
160 - 3
150 - 0
140 - 0
130 - 0
120 - 0

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Updated for #17 (about time!):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1927 - 6
1928 - 5
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1947 - 2
1948-1950 - 3
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 4
1988-1989 - 5
1990-2003 - 4
2004-2007 - 3
2008-2009 - 1
2010-2024 - 0

you should probably change Willie Mays you have him as 1948-1973, but he really should be 1951-1973... not sure if it does justice calling him a 1948 player, when that was in the n3gro leagues... and it wasnt even a full season at that...

 

[LHG]

you should probably change Willie Mays you have him as 1948-1973, but he really should be 1951-1973... not sure if it does justice calling him a 1948 player, when that was in the n3gro leagues... and it wasnt even a full season at that...

Good call.

Updated for #17 (about time!):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1927 - 6
1928 - 5
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1950 - 2
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 4
1988-1989 - 5
1990-2003 - 4
2004-2007 - 3
2008-2009 - 1
2010-2024 - 0

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i will re

Good call.

Updated for #17 (about time!):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1927 - 6
1928 - 5
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1950 - 2
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 4
1988-1989 - 5
1990-2003 - 4
2004-2007 - 3
2008-2009 - 1
2010-2024 - 0

also, can i ask, what is the reasoning for the single years?? or the very short mini periods??