POLL Top 10 poll: #17 player ever

[Cedrique]

But that’s the way it should be. My question is more about the ones that aged gracefully. Did the times they play in allow for it??

Steroid era, you can easily look at Clemens and bonds and say why they had a second prime.

But second primes are very rare. Players like Stan Musial who declined in his 30s, but was still able to be above league average in his 30s. Was that more on him being so good or his era being weak enough to allow a stud to age gracefully.

That's an interesting question. It could be related to the player salaries too. When Musial, Aaron, Robinson and other guys were playing they were making good money, but not life changing money so maybe it was more important to them to stay at the top of their game for longer. When you see some of these guys today you wonder if getting 100s of millions of dollars takes the edge off for when they are in their late 30's.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

That's an interesting question. It could be related to the player salaries too. When Musial, Aaron, Robinson and other guys were playing they were making good money, but not life changing money so maybe it was more important to them to stay at the top of their game for longer. When you see some of these guys today you wonder if getting 100s of millions of dollars takes the edge off for when they are in their late 30's.

No doubt. Salaries and the emergence of relief pitchers changed baseball more than anything else.

 

[Clayton]

Yeah WWI must have been the most horrifying of all the wars because no one has ever thought of making a sitcom about it.

WWI Museum is in KC. Its worth going if you're ever there.

Nationalism, alliances, and rapid advancements in technology meant people were pretty spooked before the war. IIRC Germans rushed for advantage, got stuck, and you just had trenches across from one other as each side fed their populations in to get bombarded. Mix in chemical warfare and its ghastly.

 

[eaglesnut]

I like the eras. But it really doesn’t tell the full story. What I mean is that just because a player plays for 20 seasons doesn’t mean he was hof caliber for all 20 years. Most players prime was their first half of their career.

Also, this experiment showed me something strange The term longevity, for the most part some eras allowed players to age gracefully and some eras didn’t. Not sure if it is era related or just coincidence.

Coincidence. Randy Johnson didn't start dominating until he was 29. Then he was HoF level the rest of the way

 

[Clayton]

Coincidence. Randy Johnson didn't start dominating until he was 29. Then he was HoF level the rest of the way

Heck, Pujols didn't even enter the league until he was 29 if you believe Hammerdown

Man, I miss it when the Cardinals were good enough to be hated

 

[LHG]

Coincidence. Randy Johnson didn't start dominating until he was 29. Then he was HoF level the rest of the way

I remember that the Mariners seriously considered a move to the bullpen for him because they felt he wasn't performing very well as a starter. Glad that didn't happen.

 

[LHG]

Looking at the top pitchers left on the board, here are where they land in their top ERA+ seasons, total seasons and career ERA+

Name

200+

190-199

180-189

170-179

160-169

150-159

140-149

130-139

120-129

Seasons Ranked

Career ERA+

Total Seasons

Grover Alexander

1​

0​

0​

1​

4​

1​

0​

1​

8​

16​

135​

20​

Lefty Grove

1​

0​

3​

1​

3​

2​

1​

2​

0​

13​

148​

17​

Greg Maddux

2​

0​

2​

1​

2​

2​

1​

0​

2​

12​

132​

23​

Pedro Martinez

5​

0​

1​

0​

3​

0​

2​

0​

3​

14​

154​

18​

Christy Matthewson

2​

0​

0​

0​

3​

3​

0​

3​

1​

12​

136​

17​

Kid Nichols

0​

0​

0​

2​

2​

1​

1​

4​

2​

12​

139​

15​

Tom Seaver

0​

1​

0​

1​

1​

0​

4​

2​

4​

13​

127​

20​

Cy Young

1​

1​

0​

1​

1​

2​

4​

3​

3​

16​

138​

22​

Name

200+

190-199

180-189

170-179

160-169

150-159

140-149

130-139

120-129

Seasons Ranked

Career

Ranked %

Grover Alexander

6%​

0​

0​

6%​

25%​

6%​

0​

6%​

50%​

16​

20​

80%​

Lefty Grove

8%​

0​

23%​

8%​

23%​

15%​

8%​

15%​

0​

13​

17​

76%​

Greg Maddux

17%​

0​

17%​

8%​

17%​

17%​

8%​

0​

17%​

12​

23​

52%​

Pedro Martinez

36%​

0​

7%​

0​

21%​

0​

14%​

0​

21%​

14​

18​

78%​

Christy Matthewson

17%​

0​

0​

0​

25%​

25%​

0​

25%​

8%​

12​

17​

71%​

Kid Nichols

0​

0​

0​

17%​

17%​

8%​

8%​

33%​

17%​

12​

15​

80%​

Tom Seaver

0​

8%​

0​

8%​

8%​

0​

31%​

15%​

31%​

13​

20​

65%​

Cy Young

6%​

6%​

0​

6%​

6%​

13%​

25%​

19%​

19%​

16​

22​

73%​

 

[Clayton]

Looking at the top pitchers left on the board, here are where they land in their top ERA+ seasons, total seasons and career ERA+

Name

200+

190-199

180-189

170-179

160-169

150-159

140-149

130-139

120-129

Seasons Ranked

Career ERA+

Total Seasons

Grover Alexander

1​

0​

0​

1​

4​

1​

0​

1​

8​

16​

135​

20​

Lefty Grove

1​

0​

3​

1​

3​

2​

1​

2​

0​

13​

148​

17​

Greg Maddux

2​

0​

2​

1​

2​

2​

1​

0​

2​

12​

132​

23​

Pedro Martinez

5​

0​

1​

0​

3​

0​

2​

0​

3​

14​

154​

18​

Christy Matthewson

2​

0​

0​

0​

3​

3​

0​

3​

1​

12​

136​

17​

Kid Nichols

0​

0​

0​

2​

2​

1​

1​

4​

2​

12​

139​

15​

Tom Seaver

0​

1​

0​

1​

1​

0​

4​

2​

4​

13​

127​

20​

Cy Young

1​

1​

0​

1​

1​

2​

4​

3​

3​

16​

138​

22​

Name

200+

190-199

180-189

170-179

160-169

150-159

140-149

130-139

120-129

Seasons Ranked

Career

Ranked %

Grover Alexander

6%​

0​

0​

6%​

25%​

6%​

0​

6%​

50%​

16​

20​

80%​

Lefty Grove

8%​

0​

23%​

8%​

23%​

15%​

8%​

15%​

0​

13​

17​

76%​

Greg Maddux

17%​

0​

17%​

8%​

17%​

17%​

8%​

0​

17%​

12​

23​

52%​

Pedro Martinez

36%​

0​

7%​

0​

21%​

0​

14%​

0​

21%​

14​

18​

78%​

Christy Matthewson

17%​

0​

0​

0​

25%​

25%​

0​

25%​

8%​

12​

17​

71%​

Kid Nichols

0​

0​

0​

17%​

17%​

8%​

8%​

33%​

17%​

12​

15​

80%​

Tom Seaver

0​

8%​

0​

8%​

8%​

0​

31%​

15%​

31%​

13​

20​

65%​

Cy Young

6%​

6%​

0​

6%​

6%​

13%​

25%​

19%​

19%​

16​

22​

73%​

Its crazy how much different Tom Seaver's ERA+ is from my perception of his legacy. First ballot HOF with the highest percentage of voters ever at the time. 110 career WAR.

 

[calsnowskier]

Its crazy how much different Tom Seaver's ERA+ is from my perception of his legacy. First ballot HOF with the highest percentage of voters ever at the time. 110 career WAR.

At the time, we hadn’t seen a GREAT pitcher in decades. The best fans could compare him to his contemporaries of Gibson and Palmer, or looking a bit further back to see Drysdale, Koufax or Ford.

It really makes me appreciate the guys of the ’90s and ‘00.

 

[calsnowskier]

And the last 15-20 years have not been horrible either with Kershaw, Max and Verlander.

 

[LHG]

Its crazy how much different Tom Seaver's ERA+ is from my perception of his legacy. First ballot HOF with the highest percentage of voters ever at the time. 110 career WAR.

I want to support him more because he is from my hometown (fun fact, my dad went to the same high school as Seaver but 10 years later. The baseball coach tried to get my dad to join the team since he was a tall left hander but my dad was more interested in rebuilding motorcycles). He is really good but maybe a notch below the rest of the guys in this list.

 

[calsnowskier]

@Cedrique

Who is your “Other” vote? I see you declaring who it is for…

 

[Cedrique]

@Cedrique

Who is your “Other” vote? I see you declaring who it is for…

I don't think it matters, but I've been changing my mind all day and the last guy I was looking at was Grover Alexander.

 

[DHoey]

Question for the group.....where are you guys at with Ichiro?

 

[calsnowskier]

Question for the group.....where are you guys at with Ichiro?

Legit first ballot HOFer, but when it comes to something like this, I think he is very over-rated.

I have included him on the list a couple times, and he hasn’t generated any attention yet. He is on the “rotation”, and I have no prob throwing him up on the 18 list.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Question for the group.....where are you guys at with Ichiro?

Definitely a HOF. But not a top 30, probably not top 40 player.

One of the best hitters of all time, but his main job was getting on base and he did not walk enough.

 

[DHoey]

Legit first ballot HOFer, but when it comes to something like this, I think he is very over-rated.

I have included him on the list a couple times, and he hasn’t generated any attention yet. He is on the “rotation”, and I have no prob throwing him up on the 18 list.

I think he will get my vote next time. A comp for him is very difficult.

Started in MLB at 27 and still managed 3000+ hits. All speed, no power. Defense was elite. Damn near unanimous HOF. Makes you play the what if he started at 21 in MLB game.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think he will get my vote next time. A comp for him is very difficult.

Started in MLB at 27 and still managed 3000+ hits. All speed, no power. Defense was elite. Damn near unanimous HOF. Makes you play the what if he started at 21 in MLB game.

A nom is fair, but you would vote him over Pujols? Seriously?

 

[DHoey]

A nom is fair, but you would vote him over Pujols? Seriously?

Not sure. I could make an argument though.

While Pujols' power numbers dwarf Ichiro's. Pulols led the league in HR's twice, Just once in RBI's, doubles, average and hits, respectively. There is more to the game than power.

Ichiro led the league in hits 7 times, average twice, SB's once. In terms of producing runs they are pretty comparable, runs/PA, both around 14%. It's really an easy to give the edge to Ichiro on the defensive side with 10 straight gold gloves.

Defensive shouldn't be overlooked (a reason why I keep voting for Clemente).

Two players, two different impacts.

 

[calsnowskier]

Not sure. I could make an argument though.

While Pujols' power numbers dwarf Ichiro's. Pulols led the league in HR's twice, Just once in RBI's, doubles, average and hits, respectively. There is more to the game than power.

Ichiro led the league in hits 7 times, average twice, SB's once. In terms of producing runs they are pretty comparable, runs/PA, both around 14%. It's really an easy to give the edge to Ichiro on the defensive side with 10 straight gold gloves.

Defensive shouldn't be overlooked (a reason why I keep voting for Clemente).

Two players, two different impacts.

Pujols was a R AND RBI beast. Ichiro was ONLY a R beast (and not that beastish, eod). Ichiro Led the league in steals once, and that year, he only had 56 steals. We are not talking Rickey or Vince levels steals.

Ichiro’s career high in OPS+ was 130. This alone should be EOT.

Granted, he was superior D to Pujols, but Pujols was miles and miles and miles and miles and… ahead of Ichiro with the bat that it doesn’t even begin to cover the gap. And it isn’t like Pujols was a horrible defensive 1B.