POLL Top 10 poll: #17 player ever

[LHG]

Tris Speaker (CF) 1907 - 1928

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 1 additional season receiving MVP votes (MVP only given in 4 years of his career)

135.0, 62.1

Bold: RBI 1, 2B 8, HR 1, OPS 1, TB 1, all time 2B

OPS+ buckets

180 - 3
160 - 6
140 - 6
120 - 2

Shohei Ohtani (DH) 2018 - current

3 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, ROY, 3 ASG

28.7, 28.7

Bold: R 1, 3B 1, HR 2, RBI 1, OPS 2, TB 2

OPS+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 0
140 - 3
120 - 1

Joe DiMaggio (CF) 1936 - 1951 (3 years lost to WWII)

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 13 ASG (AS every year of career)

79.1, 52.1

Bold: R 1, 3B 1, HR 2, RBI 2, TB 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 3
140 - 4
120 - 2

Yogi Berra (C) 1946 - 1965

3 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 8 additional seasons with MVP votes, 15 ASG (3 years with 2 ASG)

59.5, 38.2

Bold: NA

OPS+ buckets

180 - 0
160 - 0
140 - 2
120 - 7

Jimmie Foxx (1B) 1925 - 1942

3 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 MVP, 4 additional seasons with MVP votes, 9 ASG (ASG started in his age 25 season - he already had 4 MVP vote seasons at that time)

92.2, 58.1

Bold: R 1, HR 4, RBI 3, BB 2, OPS 5, TB 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 2
180 - 4
160 - 2
140 - 4
120 - 2

Albert Pujols (1B) 2001 - 2022

3 MVP, 7 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 11 ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

101.5, 59.8

Bold: R 5, HR 2, RBI 1, OPS 3, TB 4, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 3
160 - 4
140 - 5
120 - 2

Frank Robinson (RF) 1956 - 1976

3 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 12 (+2) ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

107.2, 52.9

Bold: R 3, HR 1, RBI 1, OPS 4, TB 1, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 8
120 - 3

To borrow your formatting:
Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current

3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG

86.2, 65.1

Bold: R 4, RBI 1, BB 3, OBP 4, SLG 3, OPS 4, TB 1, WAR 5

OPS+ buckets

190 - 1
180 - 2
170 - 4
160 - 3

 

[LHG]

Thanks for doing these, interesting to see 3 peaks emerge (1914-1928, 1951-1963, 1986-2003)

You are welcome! It is very interesting to see the breakdowns.
There were some who complained when the earliest era had a few names in it. Wonder if they'll start complaining about players from 1986-2003 being so high.

 

[msgkings322]

You are welcome! It is very interesting to see the breakdowns.
There were some who complained when the earliest era had a few names in it. Wonder if they'll start complaining about players from 1986-2003 being so high.

I think it's 'fair' those really were the eras with the peaks in terms of legendary players, right?

And of course the most recent years will have none or close to it, as they haven't finished their careers yet (Ohtani, Trout, Betts...)

 

[LHG]

I think it's 'fair' those really were the eras with the peaks in terms of legendary players, right?

And of course the most recent years will have none or close to it, as they haven't finished their careers yet (Ohtani, Trout, Betts...)

I don't know. I think we all approach this with some different criteria. Just seemed weird to me to have voting based on the player's era, only when there was a subjective idea that too many players from that era were already represented. I think, in a Top 25 or Top 50, it would have balanced it all out anyway.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't know. I think we all approach this with some different criteria. Just seemed weird to me to have voting based on the player's era, only when there was a subjective idea that too many players from that era were already represented. I think, in a Top 25 or Top 50, it would have balanced it all out anyway.

I think there will continue to be these 3 peaks to be honest even if we get to 30 or 40 names. Those really were 'golden age' eras.

Look at the names we're focusing on now: Speaker/Foxx (10s and 20s), Berra/Robinson (50s), Maddux/Martinez (90s), etc.

 

[Cedrique]

I've changed my vote 20 times already. This stage is pretty tough. With a lot of guys close Speaker's having more great seasons sticks out.

 

[LHG]

I think there will continue to be these 3 peaks to be honest even if we get to 30 or 40 names. Those really were 'golden age' eras.

Look at the names we're focusing on now: Speaker (10s and 20s), Maddux/Martinez (90s), etc.

But I wonder if that would be different if we just voted based on numbers and didn't try to better represent an era. There was a lot of push for a few rounds now to get more recent players on the board. I wonder if the numbers would have borne out differently had we not tried to do that or if the numbers would have generally been the same for the eras regardless (after doing 30 to 40 spots).

 

[LHG]

I've changed my vote 20 times already. This stage is pretty tough. With a lot of guys close Speaker's having more great seasons sticks out.

Speaker really does deserve to be in this spot (if not earlier). He had a great career.

 

[calsnowskier]

Just weird that he's been in the conversations with the others but was omitted in your post. Not sure what you use to determine who you will compare.

Cut n paste. Then I add as my curiosity demands.

 

[calsnowskier]

But I wonder if that would be different if we just voted based on numbers and didn't try to better represent an era. There was a lot of push for a few rounds now to get more recent players on the board. I wonder if the numbers would have borne out differently had we not tried to do that or if the numbers would have generally been the same for the eras regardless (after doing 30 to 40 spots).

I think it has born out that way because of the glut of elite pitchers in “modern” years. Johnson/Clemens/Maddux/Martinez represents a golden age of pitchers. And they existed in a golden age of offense, which amplifies their greatness.

I think there needed to be some names to come off the board before them, but them going in relative succession make sense to me.

 

[calsnowskier]

I am surprised that Young’s support has completely dried up. I believe he belongs after Maddux and Martinez, but I also think he is a notch above Mathewson.

 

[calsnowskier]

To borrow your formatting:
Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current

3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG

86.2, 65.1

Bold: R 4, RBI 1, BB 3, OBP 4, SLG 3, OPS 4, TB 1, WAR 5

OPS+ buckets

190 - 1
180 - 2
170 - 4
160 - 3

I will add this to my cut n paste moving forward.

 

[Cedrique]

Looking at some old pitchers and it really is amazing how a lot of the best all time players had their careers interrupted by military service. Grover Alexander is from a little after Mathewson. He wins 30+ games for 3 seasons in a row (the only time anyone has ever done it), then gets drafted into WWI and is exposed to mustard gas, giving him epileptic seizures and shell shock. But somehow he comes back and his baseball stats pick up where he left off. (his personal life was off the rails but he was still winning games)

But God forbid they let Stephen Strasburg pitch in the postseason after going 160 innings in 2012.........

 

[Cedrique]

Looking at some old pitchers and it really is amazing how a lot of the best all time players had their careers interrupted by military service. Grover Alexander is from a little after Mathewson. He wins 30+ games for 3 seasons in a row (the only time anyone has ever done it), then gets drafted into WWI and is exposed to mustard gas, giving him epileptic seizures and shell shock. But somehow he comes back and his baseball stats pick up where he left off. (his personal life was off the rails but he was still winning games)

But God forbid they let Stephen Strasburg pitch in the postseason after going 160 innings in 2012.........

edit: Mathewson also had 3 straight 30 win seasons. Those 2 guys are very similar, including their all time win total of 373

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I like the eras. But it really doesn’t tell the full story. What I mean is that just because a player plays for 20 seasons doesn’t mean he was hof caliber for all 20 years. Most players prime was their first half of their career.

Also, this experiment showed me something strange The term longevity, for the most part some eras allowed players to age gracefully and some eras didn’t. Not sure if it is era related or just coincidence.

 

[LHG]

Looking at some old pitchers and it really is amazing how a lot of the best all time players had their careers interrupted by military service. Grover Alexander is from a little after Mathewson. He wins 30+ games for 3 seasons in a row (the only time anyone has ever done it), then gets drafted into WWI and is exposed to mustard gas, giving him epileptic seizures and shell shock. But somehow he comes back and his baseball stats pick up where he left off. (his personal life was off the rails but he was still winning games)

But God forbid they let Stephen Strasburg pitch in the postseason after going 160 innings in 2012.........

I believe that Mathewson died about three years after he retired due to the chemicals he was exposed to in trench warfare in WWI.

 

[Cedrique]

I believe that Mathewson died about three years after he retired due to the chemicals he was exposed to in trench warfare in WWI.

Yeah WWI must have been the most horrifying of all the wars because no one has ever thought of making a sitcom about it.

 

[LHG]

Yeah WWI must have been the most horrifying of all the wars because no one has ever thought of making a sitcom about it.

Warfare changed dramatically during that war and not everyone was ready for it. I believe some armies still had cavalry units riding into battle against machine guns. It was really brutal. Chemical warfare in that war was on a scale that no other wars, before or after, has seen.

 

[Cedrique]

I like the eras. But it really doesn’t tell the full story. What I mean is that just because a player plays for 20 seasons doesn’t mean he was hof caliber for all 20 years. Most players prime was their first half of their career.

Also, this experiment showed me something strange The term longevity, for the most part some eras allowed players to age gracefully and some eras didn’t. Not sure if it is era related or just coincidence.

Yeah the more I research it the more I see guys who played at a hall of fame level for around 10 or 11 years and played at a lower level the rest of the time. That's what is so amazing about Hank Aaron. He had a 15 year run of 6+ WAR seasons (and some good seasons after that) and he wasn't really picking up much of that on defense.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah the more I research it the more I see guys who played at a hall of fame level for around 10 or 11 years and played at a lower level the rest of the time. That's what is so amazing about Hank Aaron. He had a 15 year run of 6+ WAR seasons (and some good seasons after that) and he wasn't really picking up much of that on defense.

But that’s the way it should be. My question is more about the ones that aged gracefully. Did the times they play in allow for it??

Steroid era, you can easily look at Clemens and bonds and say why they had a second prime.

But second primes are very rare. Players like Stan Musial who declined in his 30s, but was still able to be above league average in his 30s. Was that more on him being so good or his era being weak enough to allow a stud to age gracefully.