POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #15 player in baseball history. Poll closes Wedneday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

Spoiler: Tags

@navamind @LHG @Stokes1931
@steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule
@Shanemansj13 @jarntt @redseat
@black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues
@Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22 @chappee11
@CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy
@Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex
@Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte
@nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu
@Robotech @kcden @jwolt92
@Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab
@DorianRo @socaljim242 @PolarVortex
@msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin
@catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1
@obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu
@Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega
@blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12
@mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2
@Stakesarehigh @eaglesnut @boogiewithstu2007

 

[calsnowskier]

I have an early meeting this AM, but I will post a couple analysis studies later this am.

 

[LHG]

The Kid has hardly been talked about on this poll and all of a sudden he has a narrow lead? To compare OPS+ buckets with Speaker:

190+ - Speaker (1); Griffey (0)
180-189 - Speaker (3); Griffey (0)
170-179 - Speaker (5); Griffey (2)
160-169 - Speaker (1); Griffey (1)
150-159 - Speaker (3); Griffey (3)
140-149 - Speaker (3); Griffey (3)
130-139 - Speaker (0); Griffey (3)
Career OPS+ - Speaker (158); Griffey (136)
WAR7 - Speaker (62.7); Griffey (54)
Career WAR - Speaker (134.9); Griffey (83.8)
Seasons - Speaker (22); Griffey (22)

Speaker over Griffey in just about every way. We risk making a bigger farce on this vote than on the previous spot on the poll. Come on voters, don't be so lazy. I get that this is The Kid but his career didn't quite turn out the way we thought it would at the beginning.

 

[calsnowskier]

The Kid has hardly been talked about on this poll and all of a sudden he has a narrow lead? To compare OPS+ buckets with Speaker:

190+ - Speaker (1); Griffey (0)
180-189 - Speaker (3); Griffey (0)
170-179 - Speaker (5); Griffey (2)
160-169 - Speaker (1); Griffey (1)
150-159 - Speaker (3); Griffey (3)
140-149 - Speaker (3); Griffey (3)
130-139 - Speaker (0); Griffey (3)
Career OPS+ - Speaker (158); Griffey (136)
WAR7 - Speaker (62.7); Griffey (54)
Career WAR - Speaker (134.9); Griffey (83.8)
Seasons - Speaker (22); Griffey (22)

Speaker over Griffey in just about every way. We risk making a bigger farce on this vote than on the previous spot on the poll. Come on voters, don't be so lazy. I get that this is The Kid but his career didn't quite turn out the way we thought it would at the beginning.

Griffey played in a MUCH more offensively minded era, so it passes the sniff test that his OPS+ buckets would be less impresssive.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Griffey played in a MUCH more offensively minded era, so it passes the sniff test that his OPS+ buckets would be less impresssive.

Griffey could easily win this... with 3 pitchers available to vote for in a difficult choice, people might not want to choose, and just go offense instead...

and if there is a split between Johnson and Clemens then the second Runoff is going to be even more Griffey...

 

[calsnowskier]

Granted we are only about 1/3 of the way there with the votes, but this result is really surprising me so far. I think Griffey is a legit person for CONSIDERATION at this point, but I would put him well down the list here. But I am thinking we need a pitcher run at this point so….

 

[steveringo]

Where did Griffey come from??

 

[calsnowskier]

Where did Griffey come from??

Cincinnati

 

[Clayton]

I was actually proud of everyone not overrating Griffey.

Oh well

 

[steveringo]

Cincinnati

Is WKRP sponsoring this poll?


I'm not really reading everything here, but I don't remember seeing any discussions of Jr. yet. Not that he isn't worthy, it just seems like he came out of nowhere...

 

[calsnowskier]

I was actually proud of everyone not overrating Griffey.

Oh well

I still don’t expect him to win this spot. Though, if it ends up being Clemens v Griffey, I feel the “swell guy” could beat the “asshole”. And that will be the first time this poll REALLY disappoints me, to the point I may kill the project all together.

Again, I like Griffey. But people voting for niceness over prickishness, despite on-field play is NOT what this project is about.

 

[Clayton]

Griffey Jr's WAR is similar to Joe Dimaggio and he missed 3 prime years due to the service. I dont know how someone could logically pass him up like that

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I still don’t expect him to win this spot. Though, if it ends up being Clemens v Griffey, I feel the “swell guy” could beat the “asshole”. And that will be the first time this poll REALLY disappoints me, to the point I may kill the project all together.

Again, I like Griffey. But people voting for niceness over prickishness, despite on-field play is NOT what this project is about.

Griffey has not won yet... so lets not talk gloom about IF HE WINS.... with that said, i do suspect that IF he does win, we will lose some people from taking this "seriously"... and we may start seeing weird names that really dont belong...

 

[calsnowskier]

I do want to be clear, however. Griffey getting in the discussion at 15 on it’s own is not a bad thing. I think that is quite valid. Put a gun to my head, I may take him over Speaker, when I factor in all the “non-stats“ issues (Speaker’s era already being WELL represented being my primary argument). But he got such a kid glove (pun FULLY intended) treatment from the media during his playing days that his reverse-stink is much more aromatic than anything B or C received. And we all lived in that world for 20 years.

 

[LHG]

I do want to be clear, however. Griffey getting in the discussion at 15 on it’s own is not a bad thing. I think that is quite valid. Put a gun to my head, I may take him over Speaker, when I factor in all the “non-stats“ issues (Speaker’s era already being WELL represented being my primary argument). But he got such a kid glove (pun FULLY intended) treatment from the media during his playing days that his reverse-stink is much more aromatic than anything B or C received. And we all lived in that world for 20 years.

I really don't understand this argument at all. "We don't want too many of those players at the top of the poll so we need to start looking at other eras". That is how you determine the next best player?

 

[LHG]

Griffey has not won yet... so lets not talk gloom about IF HE WINS.... with that said, i do suspect that IF he does win, we will lose some people from taking this "seriously"... and we may start seeing weird names that really dont belong...

To me, Griffey at this spot is not taking this poll very seriously. The vote seems lazy. No one has tried to argue his inclusion at this point (I can only think of some brief mentions of him by some posters but nothing serious). I'd love to know the rationale behind some posters as to why they are voting him. I would guess it is one of three things going on: 1) He's so lovable!; 2) I've not bothered to do any research and picked a name I recognized; or 3) This poll is dumb and I just want to irritate those who are putting effort into it.

 

[eaglesnut]

Griffey had a great peak (that wasn't just a single year blip) and longevity too.

Gotta go Clemens. The pitchers are not getting any respect here

 

[calsnowskier]

Tris Speaker (CF) 1907 - 1928

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 1 additional season with MVP votes (MVP only given in 4 years of his career)

135.0, 62.1

Bold: RBI - 1, 2B - 8, HR - 1, OPS - 1, TB - 1, all time 2B

OPS+ buckets

180 - 3
160 - 6
140 - 6
120 - 2

Ken Griffey Jr (CF) 1989 - 2010

1 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 3 additional seasons with MVP votes, 13 ASG, 10 GG, 7 SS

83.8, 54.0

Bold: RBI - 1, HR - 4, R - 1, TB - 2

OPS+ buckets

180 - 0
160 - 3
140 - 5
120 - 4

 

[Clayton]

I do want to be clear, however. Griffey getting in the discussion at 15 on it’s own is not a bad thing. I think that is quite valid. Put a gun to my head, I may take him over Speaker, when I factor in all the “non-stats“ issues (Speaker’s era already being WELL represented being my primary argument). But he got such a kid glove (pun FULLY intended) treatment from the media during his playing days that his reverse-stink is much more aromatic than anything B or C received. And we all lived in that world for 20 years.

Pujols has 7 years of better Rbat+ than Griffey's best year.

If you factor in his whole career, Griffey was actually below average at fielding in CF. Its one of those optics + prime + story = legend but we're still about 8-15 spots too early for that imo

 

[eaglesnut]

I really don't understand this argument at all. "We don't want too many of those players at the top of the poll so we need to start looking at other eras". That is how you determine the next best player?

Yes. The 10th guy from one era shouldn't be in over the top guy from another. The game has changed over time, but being the best in your era is still measurable.