POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff 2

[chappee11]

His IP numbers would not be impressive in TODAY’s game. Don’t give me that “it is entirely due to pitch counts” nonsense.

Sure they would. How many guys regularly exceed 200IP in the 2020’s? Pedro went over 200 innings seven times in his career(he also put up a 199.1 one time). How many current guys will make it even to that milestone?

It doesn’t help that the initial comparison was Pedro to Bob Gibson and Koufax. The latter two pitched in an era of 4 man rotations and no pitch counts while Pedro pitched in a 5 many rotation with a pitch count. The game evolves and changes. Innings pitched is still very important, but de-emphasized in the modern game of loaded bullpens and swing men.

 

[calsnowskier]

problem with lincecum... although he was great for a short period... those great seasons were not all time great seasons... not even close... he was just the best pitcher, in weak pitcher seasons...

I would disagree with that. His 2 CY seasons were pretty all-time. Granted, maybe not top 5 all time, but he had ERA+ of 168 and 171. He also lead the league in Ks by a comfortable margin in a time where pitcher Ks were cherished above most all else. And he wasn’t just eeking out with low inning totals. He has 220 IPs both seasons.

In fact I think I sold him short. He had 2 GREAT seasons and 2 very good seasons (and then pure crap outside of that).

Either way, I was using him as an example of what a great pitcher IS NOT. So ultimately, we agree.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sure they would. How many guys regularly exceed 200IP in the 2020’s? Pedro went over 200 innings seven times in his career(he also put up a 199.1 one time). How many current guys will make it even to that milestone?

It doesn’t help that the initial comparison was Pedro to Bob Gibson and Koufax. The latter two pitched in an era of 4 man rotations and no pitch counts while Pedro pitched in a 5 many rotation with a pitch count. The game evolves and changes. Innings pitched is still very important, but de-emphasized in the modern game of loaded bullpens and swing men.

He was a contemporary of Johnson and Maddux, though, and they both ate his lunch in regards to IP.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would disagree with that. His 2 CY seasons were pretty all-time. Granted, maybe not top 5 all time, but he had ERA+ of 168 and 171. He also lead the league in Ks by a comfortable margin in a time where pitcher Ks were cherished above most all else. And he wasn’t just eeking out with low inning totals. He has 220 IPs both seasons.

In fact I think I sold him short. He had 2 GREAT seasons and 2 very good seasons (and then pure crap outside of that).

Either way, I was using him as an example of what a great pitcher IS NOT. So ultimately, we agree.

i would love to see a CY season ERA+ list...

168 and 171 seem low to me... but maybe it is not... and looking at his WHIP for those 2 seasons... it looked a little high... again, deserved CY those years... not questioning that.. just saying i think he had weak seasons for a CY...

 

[calsnowskier]

And IP =/= PA.

A PA is simply an opportunity. It is just a denominator and nothing more. An IP is an achievement on its own. I could, conceivably get a PA for a MLB team. There is no way in hell I would ever achieve an IP.

 

[chappee11]

problem with lincecum... although he was great for a short period... those great seasons were not all time great seasons... not even close... he was just the best pitcher, in weak pitcher seasons...

This is 100% right. Lincecum was basically a flash in the pan with a cool delivery who pitched in the best ballpark possible. He won 2 Cy Young awards with an uninspiring 168 and 171 ERA+. Then he quickly turned into a pumpkin. He’s not even on the level of Blake Snell as far as 2 time Cy Young winners go. And Snell’s name isn’t coming up for a looooong time.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would disagree with that. His 2 CY seasons were pretty all-time. Granted, maybe not top 5 all time, but he had ERA+ of 168 and 171. He also lead the league in Ks by a comfortable margin in a time where pitcher Ks were cherished above most all else. And he wasn’t just eeking out with low inning totals. He has 220 IPs both seasons.

In fact I think I sold him short. He had 2 GREAT seasons and 2 very good seasons (and then pure crap outside of that).

Either way, I was using him as an example of what a great pitcher IS NOT. So ultimately, we agree.

in WAR... that was all i can get in a quick Baseball-reference check... ranking CY seasons

Lincecum ranked 48th and 55th all time

 

[chappee11]

He was a contemporary of Johnson and Maddux, though, and they both ate his lunch in regards to IP.

True. But your assertion was the Pedro’s IP wouldn’t be impressive in today’s game. In actuality, it would be.

Back to Blake Snell, he’s won 2 Cy Young awards and never broken the 200IP barrier.

Gerrit Cole is considered a modern horse and he’s done it 6 times. Same with Max Scherzer and he’s done it 6 times(with 2 others at 190+). 200IP in a season is becoming increasingly rare.

 

[Cedrique]

This is 100% right. Lincecum was basically a flash in the pan with a cool delivery who pitched in the best ballpark possible. He won 2 Cy Young awards with an uninspiring 168 and 171 ERA+. Then he quickly turned into a pumpkin. He’s not even on the level of Blake Snell as far as 2 time Cy Young winners go. And Snell’s name isn’t coming up for a looooong time.

Lincecum turned in an epic performance as rising freshman Mitch Kramer in Dazed and Confused.

 

[DHoey]

As much as I love Pedro, #11 is a bit high for him and him ahead of Clemens is something. Koufax is too high. Rose is way too high and him ahead of the likes of Morgan/Speaker/Foxx is hilarious. Dave Winfield is not a top 100 player, nor are David Ortiz or Vlad. I could go on.

I love me some Koufax. Peak over longevity for me.

 

[navamind]

As is 35 innings in a season.

Comparing IP/S in the 60s/70s/80s to 90s or later is a stretch. That's like saying 300+ inning guys were swingmen because they threw fewer innings than guys in the 1800s

 

[calsnowskier]

This is 100% right. Lincecum was basically a flash in the pan with a cool delivery who pitched in the best ballpark possible. He won 2 Cy Young awards with an uninspiring 168 and 171 ERA+. Then he quickly turned into a pumpkin. He’s not even on the level of Blake Snell as far as 2 time Cy Young winners go. And Snell’s name isn’t coming up for a looooong time.

Without looking close, I think I agree that Snell would be higher on this list than Timmeh. But I am not certain about this. Snell really only has his 2 exceptional seasons. Timmeh has 2 very good seasons on top of his 2 elite seasons. But Snell has much more longevity than Timmeh. Timmeh ONLY has his 4 seasons. It really is shocking how bad he was outside of those 4 seasons.

 

[Cedrique]

Without looking close, I think I agree that Snell would be higher on this list than Timmeh. But I am not certain about this. Snell really only has his 2 exceptional seasons. Timmeh has 2 very good seasons on top of his 2 elite seasons. But Snell has much more longevity than Timmeh. Timmeh ONLY has his 4 seasons. It really is shocking how bad he was outside of those 4 seasons.

I'm not sure we'll ever see that debate, but I hope so

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm not sure we'll ever see that debate, but I hope so

The fact that I can’t even give one SOLID nom at this point tells me that we have gotten into the traffic at this point. I am not ready to fully put a fork in this thing just yet, but I certainly could quit at any moment now and feel totally comfortable that we have done the serious lifting.

 

[msgkings322]

The fact that I can’t even give one SOLID nom at this point tells me that we have gotten into the traffic at this point. I am not ready to fully put a fork in this thing just yet, but I certainly could quit at any moment now and feel totally comfortable that we have done the serious lifting.

Gotta go to 20 though I would think

 

[calsnowskier]

Gotta go to 20 though I would think

If it gets taken over by troll votes, I could see myself walking away immediately. But right now, I can see us going 20.

 

[LHG]

If it gets taken over by troll votes, I could see myself walking away immediately. But right now, I can see us going 20.

I hope that doesn’t happen. This has been fun and I’d hate to see it stop so abruptly.

 

[calsnowskier]

I hope that doesn’t happen. This has been fun and I’d hate to see it stop so abruptly.

The last vote was close. Griffey had no business getting that much support. So unless a lot of the voters are just making this a popularity contest (something I am not interested in) it had to be due to trolling. The only people who defended their votes said it was basically a popularity thing (Clemens was an asshole and Griffey was a good guy). While they are allowed to do that, that is a kind of troll vote.

If more of the Griffey vote voiced up to at least shed light on WHY they voted that way, I would be more OK with it. But EVERYONE who participates voted Clemens while EVERY Griffey voter was a ghost (except DHoey).

 

[LHG]

The last vote was close. Griffey had no business getting that much support. So unless a lot of the voters are just making this a popularity contest (something I am not interested in) it had to be due to trolling. The only people who defended their votes said it was basically a popularity thing (Clemens was an asshole and Griffey was a good guy). While they are allowed to do that, that is a kind of troll vote.

If more of the Griffey vote voiced up to at least shed light on WHY they voted that way, I would be more OK with it. But EVERYONE who participates voted Clemens while EVERY Griffey voter was a ghost (except DHoey).

I do understand that and it is annoying. I would understand if you shut it down because of that. Just sad that it would have to end that way.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The last vote was close. Griffey had no business getting that much support. So unless a lot of the voters are just making this a popularity contest (something I am not interested in) it had to be due to trolling. The only people who defended their votes said it was basically a popularity thing (Clemens was an asshole and Griffey was a good guy). While they are allowed to do that, that is a kind of troll vote.

If more of the Griffey vote voiced up to at least shed light on WHY they voted that way, I would be more OK with it. But EVERYONE who participates voted Clemens while EVERY Griffey voter was a ghost (except DHoey).

i honestly dont think that was trolling... ive said this a bunch of times through this.... as fair as our system is... there is a big whole in the second runoff... we have seen a bunch of times throughout this already that people did not like the 2 options in the finals...

Griffey is always going to get votes now to get into at least the first runoff... there might be a problem again going into this next one, when we potentially have 3 pitchers going... debating between the three is going to be hard, and people might want to go with the easier choice, the offensive player they like and saw...

I wouldnt be surprised if Griffey wins this next round... not because he should win, its just the easy choice...