Top 10 poll: #11 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)

Who is the #11 player ever? Vote for your top 3. This poll will close Tuesday AM.

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[BigFin]

Jimmy Foxx should definitely be on this list of choices.

 

[Clayton]

Time for the really old school players to come off the board. When I really break this down I have a lot of modernish players in my top 30 but not a lot in the top 15

 

[UK Cowboy]

Jimmy Foxx should definitely be on this list of choices.

100%

 

[chappee11]

Time for the really old school players to come off the board. When I really break this down I have a lot of modernish players in my top 30 but not a lot in the top 15

It’s funny. I feel the exact opposite way. I’m tired of over-romanticizing guys who played in the 1920’s when their baseball careers were part-time jobs. I’m hoping we see more guys who have played in the modern era. They deserve it. Is Honus Wagner really better than Ken Griffey Jr.(for example)? I doubt it.

 

[DorianRo]

Clemens

 

[Clayton]

It’s funny. I feel the exact opposite way. I’m tired of over-romanticizing guys who played in the 1920’s when their baseball careers were part-time jobs. I’m hoping we see more guys who have played in the modern era. They deserve it. Is Honus Wagner really better than Ken Griffey Jr.(for example)? I doubt it.

We will see lot of modern players but when guys like Ken Griffey Jr and Albert Pujols only put up half a legendary career its hard to push them over the line imo

 

[calsnowskier]

Career WAR / WAR7 / OPS Bold / OPS+ 200 / OPS+ 180 / OPS+ 160 / OPS+ 140 / OPS+ 120

Hornsby 2B ‘15-‘37 - 127.0, 73.9, 11, 4, 3, 4, 2, 2

Wagner SS ‘98-‘17 - 131.0, 65.5, 8, 1, 2, 7, 2, 2

Speaker CF ‘07-‘28 - 135.0, 62.8, 1, 0, 4, 6, 6, 2


Based on THESE numbers, Speaker is the 3rd best among these. It is close when looking at all players, but when focused on just these three, it is quite clear.

 

[calsnowskier]

Jimmy Foxx should definitely be on this list of choices.

He was literally the name I was typing when I ran out of space.

 

[calsnowskier]

We will see lot of modern players but when guys like Ken Griffey Jr and Albert Pujols only put up half a legendary career its hard to push them over the line imo

Pujols-hater…

 

[Clayton]

I think if someone was to sell me on a modernish player at this point the pool is Schmidt, ARod, Maddux or Henderson.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think if someone was to sell me on a modernish player at this point the pool is Schmidt, ARod, Maddux or Henderson.

Not Clemens?

I am OK with the others (granted the malfunction that occurs with ARod). And am OK with Maddux as a proxy for Clemens, but I don’t really understand making a “modernish” list sans Clemens.

 

[chappee11]

We will see lot of modern players but when guys like Ken Griffey Jr and Albert Pujols only put up half a legendary career its hard to push them over the line imo

I look at guys like Wagner and Hornsby and the numbers ARE great. I’m not arguing that. But what was the competition? Baseball was a fairly new sport. We know it wasn’t integrated. They faced the same tired pitcher over and over. There was basically no bullpen. I’ve asked this before and didn’t get an answer. Maybe nobody knows:

Did pitchers throw anything other than fastballs in the old days?
Did those fastballs break 85MPH? Or even 80MPH?

I’m tired of voting in all the old guys we never saw. I’m focusing on the best modern guys for a bit. Just my 2 cents.

 

[calsnowskier]

I look at guys like Wagner and Hornsby and the numbers ARE great. I’m not arguing that. But what was the competition? Baseball was a fairly new sport. We know it wasn’t integrated. They faced the same tired pitcher over and over. There was basically no bullpen. I’ve asked this before and didn’t get an answer. Maybe nobody knows:

Did pitchers throw anything other than fastballs in the old days?
Did those fastballs break 85MPH? Or even 80MPH?

I’m tired of voting in all the old guys we never saw. I’m focusing on the best modern guys for a bit. Just my 2 cents.

Players today know the fine points of the game because trailblazers of the past discovered them.

Players play the game that is put in front of them. I can’t ding a guy because he isn’t playing a game that won’t exist for 60 more years.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Players today know the fine points of the game because trailblazers of the past discovered them.

Players play the game that is put in front of them. I can’t ding a guy because he isn’t playing a game that won’t exist for 60 more years.

Sure. But if we punish modern players for their lack of longevity or consistency in longevity. And ignore the facts that science has made it common to throw harder than ever before, which of course makes it harder to be consistently great for both hitters and pitchers, Injuries happen more as well.

But I think it is clear that as the overall players get better it is harder to be consistent year after year.

I think the patterns prove the points. Look at WAR. Most of the accumulators were before 1962. Yes, I get that there are many post 1962 as well. But when comparing war7 to jaws

And there has not been a .400 hitter since 1941.

Those patterns are not coincidence.

 

[Clayton]

Not Clemens?

And am OK with Maddux as a proxy for Clemens, but I don’t really understand making a “modernish” list sans Clemens.

I just figure Maddux is ahead of him because of all of the gold gloves and his 2 peak seasons.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sure. But if we punish modern players for their lack of longevity or consistency in longevity. And ignore the facts that science has made it common to throw harder than ever before, which of course makes it harder to be consistently great for both hitters and pitchers, Injuries happen more as well.

But I think it is clear that as the overall players get better it is harder to be consistent year after year.

I think the patterns prove the points. Look at WAR. Most of the accumulators were before 1962. Yes, I get that there are many post 1962 as well. But when comparing war7 to jaws

And there has not been a .400 hitter since 1941.

Those patterns are not coincidence.

BA? Again?

 

[calsnowskier]

I just figure Maddux is ahead of him because of all of the gold gloves and his 2 peak seasons.

GG is like a 5th tie-breaker. Especially for pitcher. Peak season, I can get behind, though.

 

[calsnowskier]

I just figure Maddux is ahead of him because of all of the gold gloves and his 2 peak seasons.

And ftr, if someone proposed Maddux and Clemens as the 2 greatest pitchers ever, it would not be a hard sell to get me on board with that argument.

 

[calsnowskier]

Maddux ‘93 and ‘94 is just filthy. He lead the league in IP both season while posting ERA+s of 260 and 271.

This run, alone, probably has more to do with hitters going to PEDs than anything else…

Though Clemens ‘97 he had significantly more IPs while putting up a 222 ERA+. He also had a total of 3 ERA+ 200 seasons vs Maddux’s 2. While Clemens only lead the league in IPs 2 times (Maddux 5 times), he consistently had higher seasonal totals (the two are within 100IPs for their careers, so that is essentially a wash)