Top 10 poll: #10 player ever

[LHG]

Indeed. Give me the guy who beat Mahomes head-to-head better than anyone.

Well, Mahomes was very hittable as a pitcher, so I'm not sure he belongs in this conversation.










(Waiting to see who gets this)

 

[LHG]

Best career ERA+ for pitchers with at least 1750 IP:
Clayton Kershaw 156
Pedro Martinez 154
Satchel Paige 150
Lefty Grove 148
Hoyt Wilhelm 147
Walter Johnson 147
Ed Walsh 146
Harry Stovey 144
Addie Joss 143
Roger Clemens 143

 

[LHG]

Best career ERA+ for pitchers with at least 1750 IP:
Clayton Kershaw 156
Pedro Martinez 154
Satchel Paige 150
Lefty Grove 148
Hoyt Wilhelm 147
Walter Johnson 147
Ed Walsh 146
Harry Stovey 144
Addie Joss 143
Roger Clemens 143

Harry Stovey should not be on this list. Whoops, he is a hitter not a pitcher.

 

[calsnowskier]

Harry Stovey should not be on this list. Whoops, he is a hitter not a pitcher.

Harry Stovey Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Harry Stovey. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[steveringo]

Warning!

After this round, I'm gonna talk about Alex Rodriguez.

 

[Clayton]

If my quick math is right then ERA+7 for the names I've seen is something like:

Pedro Martinez: 217.57
Walter Johnson: 211.14
Greg Maddux: 200.71
Roger Clemens: 196.71
Clayton Kershaw: 194.43
Randy Johnson: 187.71
Cy Young: 172.71
Bob Gibson: 161.29
Tom Seaver: 158.86
Sandy Koufax: 156.57
Steve Carlton: 156.29
Nolan Ryan: 141.86
Warren Spahn: 140.86

Pedro has the best season. Maddux has the 2nd best and 3rd best season. Unless we count Satchel Paige in which case in the ne leagues he has the 1st and 2nd best season and 3 of the top 5 seasons.

Probably a good argument for Maddux and Pedro to be top 20 overall.

 

[chappee11]

Clemens - 24 seasons, 7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 CY, 6 top 10 MVP, 4672/1580 K/BB, 3 200+ ERA+, 14 additional 120+ ERA+, 707/118 GS/CG

Martinez - 15 seasons, 3 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 3154/760 K/BB, 5 200+ ERA+, 7 additional 120+ ERA+, 409/76 GS/CG

Clemens is a tough case because he was starting to decline in the seasons before 1996, but was reborn with PEDs in 1997 and was better than ever. It’s hard to compare him to Pedro because of those outlier seasons.

 

[chappee11]

Probably so yes. For just one game at their peak. Maybe Lincecum too but that's the homer in me.

Lincecum over Bumgarner from a Giants fan?? Am I missing something here? I always thought Bumgarner was one of THE big game pitchers of his era. Lincecum was an event and he was “fun”, but he wasn’t on that level.

 

[broncosmitty]

Lefty Grove needs to be on the list of players.

 

[Clayton]

Lefty Grove needs to be on the list of players.

His 7 best ERA+ seasons average out to 182.29 which puts him above Cy Young and below Randy Johnson.

Cy Young is becoming one of the hardest players to rank

 

[chappee11]

If my quick math is right then ERA+7 for the names I've seen is something like:

Pedro Martinez: 217.57
Walter Johnson: 211.14
Greg Maddux: 200.71
Roger Clemens: 196.71
Clayton Kershaw: 194.43
Randy Johnson: 187.71
Cy Young: 172.71
Bob Gibson: 161.29
Tom Seaver: 158.86
Sandy Koufax: 156.57
Steve Carlton: 156.29
Nolan Ryan: 141.86
Warren Spahn: 140.86

Pedro has the best season. Maddux has the 2nd best and 3rd best season. Unless we count Satchel Paige in which case in the ne leagues he has the 1st and 2nd best season and 3 of the top 5 seasons.

Probably a good argument for Maddux and Pedro to be top 20 overall.

Interesting list. Since Walter Johnson has already secured the #1 slot for pitchers, Pedro has a legitimate claim to the #2 slot. And he doesn’t have the stink of PEDs on him, either.

 

[broncosmitty]

His 7 best ERA+ seasons average out to 182.29 which puts him above Cy Young and below Randy Johnson.

Cy Young is becoming one of the hardest players to rank

Cutting his prime off by only having 7 seasons. He lead the league in ERA nine times.

Never mind that he lead the league in Ks his first seven years.

#1 lefty alltime imo.

 

[Clayton]

Clemens is a tough case because he was starting to decline in the seasons before 1996, but was reborn with PEDs in 1997 and was better than ever. It’s hard to compare him to Pedro because of those outlier seasons.

Whats interesting is Clemens WAR stat at that cutoff is extremely similar to Pedros career WAR stat.

Lefty's prime also in similar ballpark in terms of years.

 

[chappee11]

Whats interesting is Clemens WAR stat at that cutoff is extremely similar to Pedros career WAR stat.

Lefty's prime also in similar ballpark in terms of years.

Clemens has a 4 year stint from 1993-1996 where he’s tailing off as he enters his 30’s. He has no all star appearances and no top 20 Cy Young finishes during this time. There are still some really solid seasons in there, but he was clearly aging.

Then come his 1997 and 1998 seasons with the PEDs, which are comically absurd and he’s superhuman and basically the best pitcher who ever lived. At age 34 and 35. I love his durability, but I hope there are others that will factor this into his calculation going forward in this exercise.

 

[Clayton]

Clemens has a 4 year stint from 1993-1996 where he’s tailing off as he enters his 30’s. He has no all star appearances and no top 20 Cy Young finishes during this time. There are still some really solid seasons in there, but he was clearly aging.

Then come his 1997 and 1998 seasons with the PEDs, which are comically absurd and he’s superhuman and basically the best pitcher who ever lived. At age 34 and 35. I love his durability, but I hope there are others that will factor this into his calculation going forward in this exercise.

Well, if we are just factoring in his Boston years then he falls below Clayton Kershaw, Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove.

 

[LHG]

I still think Cy Young should be strongly considered now. He does lead all major leaguers pitchers in wins by almost 100 more than the 2nd place guy (Johnson). When pitchers threw complete games just about every time, there was more weight to that stat. His career WAR of 163.6 is just a notch below Johnson. His ERA+ is 138, but does fall below about 10 other pitchers with at least 1750 IP. His WAR7 is 78 (2nd after Johnson) and the WAR7 adjusted is 50.8 (10th all time).

Maybe there are a couple pitchers to add in the list before him but I think he deserves to be seriously considered.

 

[calsnowskier]

Warning!

After this round, I'm gonna talk about Alex Rodriguez.

Arbitrarily? No matter who takes this spot?

If Hornsby takes this spot, than you think ARod is better than Musial? If Musial wins this spot, than you think ARod is better than Hornsby?

But right now, you think both Hornsby and Musial are better than ARod?

 

[calsnowskier]

If my quick math is right then ERA+7 for the names I've seen is something like:

Pedro Martinez: 217.57
Walter Johnson: 211.14
Greg Maddux: 200.71
Roger Clemens: 196.71
Clayton Kershaw: 194.43
Randy Johnson: 187.71
Cy Young: 172.71
Bob Gibson: 161.29
Tom Seaver: 158.86
Sandy Koufax: 156.57
Steve Carlton: 156.29
Nolan Ryan: 141.86
Warren Spahn: 140.86

Pedro has the best season. Maddux has the 2nd best and 3rd best season. Unless we count Satchel Paige in which case in the ne leagues he has the 1st and 2nd best season and 3 of the top 5 seasons.

Probably a good argument for Maddux and Pedro to be top 20 overall.

Not what I meant. I meant add their 7 best ERA+s. Though, it looks like you are averaging their 7 best? Ultimately, that produces the same number, just in a different format.

 

[calsnowskier]

Clemens is a tough case because he was starting to decline in the seasons before 1996, but was reborn with PEDs in 1997 and was better than ever. It’s hard to compare him to Pedro because of those outlier seasons.

Verlander was basically done as he left Detroit. But you can argue he has put together a borderline HOF career POST-Detroit.

And Clemens didn’t break any rules in ’96 or after.

 

[calsnowskier]

Lincecum over Bumgarner from a Giants fan?? Am I missing something here? I always thought Bumgarner was one of THE big game pitchers of his era. Lincecum was an event and he was “fun”, but he wasn’t on that level.

If you actually saw Timmeh pitch in ‘08-’09, you wouldn’t say that. He was absolutely filthy. Bum had his big games in big moments. Timmeh had his best games every time out. And he was spectacular.