tOfficial 2015 NBA Draft/Free Agency Thread

[trojanfan12]

First you say this:

Love was a top 5 player.

Then you say this:

The difference was Lebron had Wade, a top 5 player at the time

So was Love a top 5 player or not?

This year and on is a different story. Championship or bust.

It was championship or bust last year. It will be championship or bust every season that Lebron is on your roster. Especially with all of the "win now" moves that the Cavs made.

 

[trojanfan12]

Depends on what your definition of better is.

Better, as defined by Cavs fans is, Love went to the Cavs and Bosh didn't.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Nope not close. it was ok but they failed. when you say not 1..2...3..4..5...6..7. u expect to win. They needed to win at least 3 in a row to be a success. Don't get me wrong 2 is nice but losing 50% of the time is not what they signed up for.

You are taking not 1..2... thing way out of context.
He was answering a question about why he chose Miami, where the answer was based on his mindset that he would be on a team that could compete for championships every year, which it did.

That being said, because of who was on the roster,the expectations had to be there.

Just because James paid a SI writer to write an article filled with nonsense just to lower expectations, doesn't mean they should have been any lower then Miamis once the Love trade was made.

 

[purguy12]

You are taking not 1..2... thing way out of context.
He was answering a question about why he chose Miami, where the answer was based on his mindset that he would be on a team that could compete for championships every year, which it did.

That being said, because of who was on the roster,the expectations had to be there.

Just because James paid a SI writer to write an article filled with nonsense just to lower expectations, doesn't mean they should have been any lower then Miamis once the Love trade was made.

I just think going winning 2 out 4 is not what their goal was and their expectations when they signed up. I remember multiple time LBJ saying he wanted 3 in a row so he can match other greats.

 

[gordontrue]

I was expanding on a post that another poster made in which they posted the winning percentages. The winning percentage in the finals of all of the players listed is higher than Lebron's winning percentage in the finals. Just as their records in the finals are better than Lebron's.

Whether you want to use numbers of rings, records in finals appearances, or winning percentage in the finals. It is all essentially the same stat. The logic isn't flawed because the stat is the same.

Example: Kobe has 5 rings, Lebron has 2. Kobe has a 5-2 record in the finals, Lebron is 2-4. Kobe has a finals winning percentage of .714, Lebron has a finals winning percentage of .333. It's all the same stat.

Using # rings makes sense. #rings / years played makes even more sense. And like I said, LeBron still has a ways to go in regards to MJ, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, etc.

But there is a huge difference between that and Finals winning percentage. In your example of Kobe and LeBron... yeah its basically the same.

But what about:

- Chauncey Billups is 50% in Finals > Jerry West at 11% (Both have 1 ring)
- Hakeem Olajuwon is %100 in Finals > Magic Johnson at 55% (2 rings for Olajuwon, 5 for Magic)
- Rick Fox is %100 Finals > Wilt Chamberlain at 28% (3 rings for Fox, 2 for Wilt)
- Pau Gasol is 66% in Finals > Kareem Abdul-Jabar at 60% (2 rings for Pua, 6 for Kareem)


The problem with Finals Win percentage is that it devalues losing in the Finals but doesn't devalue losing at any other stage in the season.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I just think going winning 2 out 4 is not what their goal was and their expectations when they signed up. I remember multiple time LBJ saying he wanted 3 in a row so he can match other greats.

Goal is to win every year, and I'm sure they all want to, but many other qualified teams have that same goal.

Cavs fans are going to find out sooner or later what type of toll these extended seasons take on the players, both physically AND mentally.

 

[purguy12]

Goal is to win every year, and I'm sure they all want to, but many other qualified teams have that same goal.

Cavs fans are going to find out sooner or later what type of toll these extended seasons take on the players, both physically AND mentally.

I agree about the toll. Think about they are getting a beat up LBJ. Guy has been to the Finals 5 years in a row(credit due). He has played 2 extra seasons already in his career because of playoff games.

 

[trojanfan12]

Using # rings makes sense. #rings / years played makes even more sense. And like I said, LeBron still has a ways to go in regards to MJ, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, etc.

But there is a huge difference between that and Finals winning percentage. In your example of Kobe and LeBron... yeah its basically the same.

But what about:

- Chauncey Billups is 50% in Finals > Jerry West at 11% (Both have 1 ring)
- Hakeem Olajuwon is %100 in Finals > Magic Johnson at 55% (2 rings for Olajuwon, 5 for Magic)
- Rick Fox is %100 Finals > Wilt Chamberlain at 28% (3 rings for Fox, 2 for Wilt)
- Pau Gasol is 66% in Finals > Kareem Abdul-Jabar at 60% (2 rings for Pua, 6 for Kareem)


The problem with Finals Win percentage is that it devalues losing in the Finals but doesn't devalue losing at any other stage in the season.

Are you really that desperate to defend Lebron? Seriously?!? It's the same stat and he was being compared to all time greats with more rings than him. It's the same stat.

Posting their records in the finals (which you seem to have no problem with) is no different than posting their winning percentage in the finals. The winning percentage comes directly from the record. It was a comparison among specific players.

What's next from you? The tired and played out "Robert Horry has more rings than everybody" defense? Quit making excuses for Lebron being 2-4 in the finals and just accept it. It isn't going to change his current finals record.

Guess what, if he wins a championship in Cleveland, he'll still only be 3-4 in finals and won't get bumped up the list just because it was in Cleveland.

 

[gordontrue]

I'm definitely feeling the championship-or-bust with the Cavs this year. Its not that if they don't do it this year... there is no hope for the next couple years.

Its just that I think this is the best chance. Especially if people stay healthy. They had their year to jive and get that taste of success and the drive that comes from almost doing it. Next year they may have salary cap issues and LeBron will be getting older. This year is the best chance, IMO .

 

[trojanfan12]

Goal is to win every year, and I'm sure they all want to, but many other qualified teams have that same goal.

Cavs fans are going to find out sooner or later what type of toll these extended seasons take on the players, both physically AND mentally.

Yep. It's likely that the toll will effect Lebron more than the other players as well because he just went to his 5th straight finals. As much as Lebron is a physical freak, the miles will catch up to him. There's a price that these guys pay for that much success.

It will be interesting to see if Kyrie and Love can step up when the miles start to wear Lebron down.

 

[gordontrue]

Are you really that desperate to defend Lebron? Seriously?!? It's the same stat and he was being compared to all time greats with more rings than him. It's the same stat.

Posting their records in the finals (which you seem to have no problem with) is no different than posting their winning percentage in the finals. The winning percentage comes directly from the record. It was a comparison among specific players.

What's next from you? The tired and played out "Robert Horry has more rings than everybody" defense? Quit making excuses for Lebron being 2-4 in the finals and just accept it. It isn't going to change his current finals record.

Guess what, if he wins a championship in Cleveland, he'll still only be 3-4 in finals and won't get bumped up the list just because it was in Cleveland.

You won't believe this because everything I say - in your eyes - is out of desperation to defend LeBron...

but dude... I would be saying the EXACT same thing if I didn't like LeBron or if LeBron was 5-5 in the Finals.

# of rings is a logical stat.
Finals record isn't.
Finals winning % (same thing as Finals record) isn't.

Its obvious logic that is agreed on by the majority of people including people who don't like LeBron. I'm done with the subject because the truth of what I've said is so obvious that it requires no defense.


I wish you would discount my statements on their merit rather than on the fact that I happen to be a LeBron fan. Its annoying.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm definitely feeling the championship-or-bust with the Cavs this year. Its not that if they don't do it this year... there is no hope for the next couple years.

Its just that I think this is the best chance. Especially if people stay healthy. They had their year to jive and get that taste of success and the drive that comes from almost doing it. Next year they may have salary cap issues and LeBron will be getting older. This year is the best chance, IMO .

Exactly. As long as Lebron is on the roster and playing at a very high level, the Cavs will be in the mix for the championship. But, as you point out, the older Lebron gets, the smaller the window becomes.

Even if the Cavs had been healthy in these past finals and lost, it could be seen as a "mulligan" because of what we learned from the Heat's 1st season with their big 3. It's already going to be a little more difficult for the Cavs this year and just going to get harder every season.

 

[trojanfan12]

You won't believe this because everything I say - in your eyes - is out of desperation to defend LeBron...

but dude... I would be saying the EXACT same thing if I didn't like LeBron or if LeBron was 5-5 in the Finals.

# of rings is a logical stat.
Finals record isn't.
Finals winning % (same thing as Finals record) isn't.

Its obvious logic that is agreed on by the majority of people including people who don't like LeBron. I'm done with the subject because the truth of what I've said is so obvious that it requires no defense.


I wish you would discount my statements on their merit rather than on the fact that I happen to be a LeBron fan. Its annoying.

Winning percentage is the same stat as finals record. It is the finals record presented as a percentage. It really is that simple. I can explain it to you (and Lord knows I've tried), but I can't understand it for you.

 

[gordontrue]

Winning percentage is the same stat as finals record. It is the finals record presented as a percentage. It really is that simple. I can explain it to you (and Lord knows I've tried), but I can't understand it for you.

Yes, I understand that... that's exactly what I just said...

# of rings is a logical stat.
Finals record isn't.
Finals winning % (same thing as Finals record) isn't.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

Those HEAT teams had a young ascending Lebron about to enter the peak years
Those are the years where experience is still married with reasonable youth and athleticism.

These CAVS teams will likely have an older slowly declining Lebron on the other side of his peak.
He will likely have to rely much more heavily on his experience as youth and athleticism fades.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yes, I understand that... that's exactly what I just said...

A stat is a stat. It's a cold fact. You not liking it or how it makes Lebron look vs. other greats, doesn't matter. The stat is what it is and says what it says. If you don't like it, that's too bad. The stat doesn't care.

 

[Shanemansj13]

First you say this:



Then you say this:



So was Love a top 5 player or not?



It was championship or bust last year. It will be championship or bust every season that Lebron is on your roster. Especially with all of the "win now" moves that the Cavs made.

I guess you have a hard time reading, he was a top 5 player before he came to Cleveland lol.

I said once the injuries happened it wasnt championship or bust, so no it wasnt.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Nope not close. it was ok but they failed. when you say not 1..2...3..4..5...6..7. u expect to win. They needed to win at least 3 in a row to be a success. Don't get me wrong 2 is nice but losing 50% of the time is not what they signed up for.

Whether you say it or not, if you are a great team you have to produce I can agree on that. So Kobe and Shaq were together for 8 years and they won 3 titles. So that is a fail too! But you know it's Lebron, so you can deflect lol

 

[trojanfan12]

I guess you have a hard time reading, he was a top 5 player before he came to Cleveland lol.

I said once the injuries happened it wasnt championship or bust, so no it wasnt.

So he was a top 5 player who got worse in Cleveland?

Championship or bust is based on the roster when the season starts. The Cavs were championship or bust before the season started based on their roster. You waiting until they got to the playoffs and suffered some injuries to say it wasn't, doesn't change anything.

 

[gordontrue]

A stat is a stat. It's a cold fact. You not liking it or how it makes Lebron look vs. other greats, doesn't matter. The stat is what it is and says what it says. If you don't like it, that's too bad. The stat doesn't care.

You're not listening. I'm done with this topic.