tOfficial 2015 NBA Draft/Free Agency Thread

[gordontrue]

Suppose that Michael Jordan made it to the Finals in each of his 15 years in the NBA. He still won the titles in 91-93, 96-98. In his other 9 seasons he did better than reality... making it all the way to the Finals before losing to the champs.

How does this affect Jordan's legacy? Keep in mind that he would be 6 - 9 in the Finals.

 

[LAD]

I'm talking about why people hold James' losses in the Finals in some worse regard then Jordan losing in an opening or earlier round.

Of course a lot of it has to with which team is better in whatever round it occurs if you're comparing apples to apples.

So, did Jordan ever win a Finals series where he was not favored?

It's only happened to James once.

No one denies that the Heat prob should have beat Dallas, but his 2 Spurs losses and Warriors loss were certainly not unexpected.

What? I think it's fair to say that second Spurs loss was unexpected since he had his super team. Come on...every season those three played together they were the favorites to win.

 

[gordontrue]

What? I think it's fair to say that second Spurs loss was unexpected since he had his super team. Come on...every season those three played together they were the favorites to win.

Going into the 2014 Finals I'd say the predictions were pretty evenly split between the Spurs and the Heat. The Heat because they were the 2x defending champs... the Spurs because they were playing amazing and the Heat weren't really playing that well in the playoffs.

AFTER the series... I think there was a general feeling that that Spurs team could have dismantled anyone the way they were playing.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm talking about why people hold James' losses in the Finals in some worse regard then Jordan losing in an opening or earlier round.

Of course a lot of it has to with which team is better in whatever round it occurs if you're comparing apples to apples.

So, did Jordan ever win a Finals series where he was not favored?

It's only happened to James once.

No one denies that the Heat prob should have beat Dallas, but his 2 Spurs losses and Warriors loss were certainly not unexpected.

The finals are the biggest stage. Superstars are expected to perform on the biggest stage when they get there. Losing in the earlier rounds isn't really talked about or held against anyone, Lebron included, because it's not the biggest stage. It's how they perform in the finals that seems to be what is counted/talked about.

Lebron has had is own earlier playoff round failures and has even missed the playoffs. Those don't get counted against him.

Regardless of the reasons/excuses given, Lebron hasn't won on the biggest stage like the other greats that he gets compared to have.

 

[LAD]

I'm talking about why people hold James' losses in the Finals in some worse regard then Jordan losing in an opening or earlier round.

Of course a lot of it has to with which team is better in whatever round it occurs if you're comparing apples to apples.

So, did Jordan ever win a Finals series where he was not favored?

It's only happened to James once.

No one denies that the Heat prob should have beat Dallas, but his 2 Spurs losses and Warriors loss were certainly not unexpected.

I'm not even sure the comparison here was LBJ's Finals losses vs. MJ's losses in earlier rounds of the post season and which was worse. I took the comparison as MJ having the better record in the Finals...as is the case no matter who he's compared to.

And to answer your question I'm pretty sure MJ was favored in every Finals appearance he made...and he didn't disappoint. But, the fact it's happened to James once wasn't what the debate was about. And since you brought it up I have to say I think that disappointment was a stinger...especially after all the childish antics from Wade & LBJ in reference to Dirk. I would have to imagine that was a sweet one for Dirk.

 

[trojanfan12]

Sometimes as fans we gotta admit when a player(s) have literally stuffed their foot down their throat.

As Lakers fans, we wouldn't know anything about that. *cough, cough Kobe cough*

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Hahahaha alrighty you want to play semantics. So if it wasn't a promise, was it a prediction then? Is that a better word? Goodness.

I'm pretty sure you're aware of the point here, as you're sharp as a tack. Sometimes as fans we gotta admit when a player(s) have literally stuffed their foot down their throat. This is that time for you. That whole scene didn't bode well with many at the time and with only 2 championships it clearly fell short of the expectation set forth.

I'm the last person to defend James, BUT, it was a Heat event for fans.
It was in FUN. Party atmosphere.

And, the 'prediction' was him explaining that he chose Miami because he thought it gave him the best chance to compete for X amount of years.
While I understand why/how people want to run with the 'promise' thing, James is far from stupid in that sense.
You guys act like he was signed here for 10-12 years with no opt outs.

 

[LAD]

Suppose that Michael Jordan made it to the Finals in each of his 15 years in the NBA. He still won the titles in 91-93, 96-98. In his other 9 seasons he did better than reality... making it all the way to the Finals before losing to the champs.

How does this affect Jordan's legacy? Keep in mind that he would be 6 - 9 in the Finals.

I don't know about affecting his legacy, however, for the sake of debates it would make it easier for those who debate against his greatness.

 

[LAD]

AFTER the series... I think there was a general feeling that that Spurs team could have dismantled anyone the way they were playing.

Yes I agree with this. By the time they were done with the Heat it was VERY clear the Spurs were on point.

 

[gordontrue]

The finals are the biggest stage. Superstars are expected to perform on the biggest stage when they get there. Losing in the earlier rounds isn't really talked about or held against anyone, Lebron included, because it's not the biggest stage. It's how they perform in the finals that seems to be what is counted/talked about.

Lebron has had is own earlier playoff round failures and has even missed the playoffs. Those don't get counted against him.

Regardless of the reasons/excuses given, Lebron hasn't won on the biggest stage like the other greats that he gets compared to have.

Finally you've gotten around to the only legitimate argument for taking any significance from someone's Finals record. I can buy into this to some extent.

When looking at Finals records... the first number( # of Championships) is really all that matters in comparison. The second number (# of Finals lost) can come in as a tie-breaker / supplemental info... but it should be treated as a POSITIVE not a negative.

IMO:

6 - 1 is better than 6 - 0 in the Finals.
6 - 2 is better than 6 - 1.
6 - 3 is better than 6 - 2.

etc..

 

[trojanfan12]

Suppose that Michael Jordan made it to the Finals in each of his 15 years in the NBA. He still won the titles in 91-93, 96-98. In his other 9 seasons he did better than reality... making it all the way to the Finals before losing to the champs.

How does this affect Jordan's legacy? Keep in mind that he would be 6 - 9 in the Finals.

Suppose my aunt had a penis. Then she'd be my Uncle. Talk about a strawman argument.

What if Kobe made it to the finals everyone of of his 20 seasons and went 10-10? He'd have more rings than Bill Russell. But would the 10 losses count against him?

Now we've reached the "let's just throw a bunch of hypotheticals out there to try and defend Lebron" stage of the discussion.

 

[LAD]

As Lakers fans, we wouldn't know anything about that. *cough, cough Kobe cough*

Well I did say "we".

 

[gordontrue]

I don't know about affecting his legacy, however, for the sake of debates it would make it easier for those who debate against his greatness.

See... I completely disagree.

In my book... Jordan going 6 - 9 in the Finals would tremendously increase his greatness. It is undeniably a better performance. It would mean he carried those early teams through the Pistons. It would mean he carried the Wizards to the Finals. It would be unbeatable greatness, IMO.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I'm not even sure the comparison here was LBJ's Finals losses vs. MJ's losses in earlier rounds of the post season and which was worse. I took the comparison as MJ having the better record in the Finals...as is the case no matter who he's compared to.

And to answer your question I'm pretty sure MJ was favored in every Finals appearance he made...and he didn't disappoint. But, the fact it's happened to James once wasn't what the debate was about. And since you brought it up I have to say I think that disappointment was a stinger...especially after all the childish antics from Wade & LBJ in reference to Dirk. I would have to imagine that was a sweet one for Dirk.

Obviously Finals to Finals record, James falls way short of many.
No debate here.

I guess the premise though, is if you are as great as James, you should win every Finals.

How can one argue that though, if Jordan>James but has lost in the opening round(s)?

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

The finals are the biggest stage. Superstars are expected to perform on the biggest stage when they get there. Losing in the earlier rounds isn't really talked about or held against anyone, Lebron included, because it's not the biggest stage. It's how they perform in the finals that seems to be what is counted/talked about.

Lebron has had is own earlier playoff round failures and has even missed the playoffs. Those don't get counted against him.

Regardless of the reasons/excuses given, Lebron hasn't won on the biggest stage like the other greats that he gets compared to have.

I think they do.

They are just left out of the discussions because of the way it affects Jordan and the others in those same discussions.

 

[LAD]

See... I completely disagree.

In my book... Jordan going 6 - 9 in the Finals would tremendously increase his greatness. It is undeniably a better performance. It would mean he carried those early teams through the Pistons. It would mean he carried the Wizards to the Finals. It would be unbeatable greatness, IMO.

But when you're debating all that matters are the tangible facts...which in this case would be he LOST at some point. But the fact that he is undefeated means he's NEVER lost on the biggest stage. Different debate imo.

 

[gordontrue]

Suppose my aunt had a penis. Then she'd be my Uncle. Talk about a strawman argument.

What if Kobe made it to the finals everyone of of his 20 seasons and went 10-10? He'd have more rings than Bill Russell. But would the 10 losses count against him?

Now we've reached the "let's just throw a bunch of hypotheticals out there to try and defend Lebron" stage of the discussion.

Lol, you are the one that keeps on bringing up LeBron I haven't mentioned him. I am arguing the insignificance of Finals records independent of LeBron or any other player.

I am using a hypothetical to demonstrate the idiocy of counting Finals losses as a negative on a resume, since all my other attempts to explain the obvious logic to you were failing.


If you want to read all of my posts through a "This guy is just trying to do whatever he can to defend LeBron" lense.... then that is on YOU. I would be on this side of logic regardless of what LeBron's Finals record was.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

See... I completely disagree.

In my book... Jordan going 6 - 9 in the Finals would tremendously increase his greatness. It is undeniably a better performance. It would mean he carried those early teams through the Pistons. It would mean he carried the Wizards to the Finals. It would be unbeatable greatness, IMO.

I also agree with this.

Part of greatness is elevating your team to beat teams that people feel you shouldn't beat, like James did vs the Pistons.
How can losing to a better team after that, count against him?

 

[gordontrue]

I also agree with this.

Part of greatness is elevating your team to beat teams that people feel you shouldn't beat, like James did vs the Pistons.
How can losing to a better team after that, count against him?

Only after logic is dismissed from the conversation.

 

[LAD]

Obviously Finals to Finals record, James falls way short of many.
No debate here.

I guess the premise though, is if you are as great as James, you should win every Finals.

How can one argue that though, if Jordan>James but has lost in the opening round(s)?

I think your take is a little deeper than what I saw here. I only saw the debate regarding wins/losses on the biggest stage. Seems like you've included the road that led to that biggest stage.

I don't see your view as right or wrong, only that you've included a larger sample to pull from. I think though at the end of the debate the comparison should include the outcome which in this case favors MJ since he has 4 more rings than LBJ.