Time to blow up the team

[msgkings322]

Anyone ready to jump on board yet? It is time.

Still no reason to blow anything up. need to pick up a player or three for next year over the winter. trade Pence and Lopez. Sign Lopez back. need s backup catcher, LF;, probably RF, one SP. That's all.

 

[tzill]

Anyone ready to jump on board yet? It is time.

Change your diapers.

 

[SFAnthem]

Anyone ready to jump on board yet? It is time.

This team is constructed differently than those Lakers you speak of.

The core is good, retool not rebuild.

 

[msgkings322]

For me, this has been a more disappointing than usual season. Obviously we've been worse in the past, but when you win the World Series and bring the whole gang back you kind of figure you'll at least make the playoffs or come close, be a contender.

It's strange to see a WS winner just suck like this. Yes injuries, but it's not all that.
Heck in 2011 we missed the playoffs too but we were fighting and scrapping, even after Buster went down, and didn't miss by a lot. We won 86 games that year, we'll be fortunate to win 80 this year.

2013 we are just punchless and uncompetitive. The difference I guess is the pitching. We couldn't score any runs in 2011 either, but the pitching kept going at an elite level, with Cain, Timmy, Bum, and Vogelsong all having great years and only Sanchez lagging. The pen was still terrific too. It's was Lincecum's last year as an elite pitcher. Panda had a good year.

This year the pitching is mediocre, the hitting is bad, the defense is meh. Just a frustrating, sorry team to watch after a convincing WS win.

Oh well, odd numbered years aren't our years I guess. Not since 1989, and that didn't end too well...
We'll be back to battle in 2014 I believe.

 

[calsnowskier]

2011>>>>>>2013

In 2011, it REALLY all came down to Busters injury. The team still had heart (until Diva showed up, that is) so even the losses were some-what enjoyable.

This team simply refuses to even show up at the ballpark. This is not fun to watch. Our GDTs have fallen to about 2 pages, then a page or so of snark and bickering after-the-fact.

 

[msgkings322]

2011>>>>>>2013

In 2011, it REALLY all came down to Busters injury. The team still had heart (until Diva showed up, that is) so even the losses were some-what enjoyable.

This team simply refuses to even show up at the ballpark. This is not fun to watch. Our GDTs have fallen to about 2 pages, then a page or so of snark and bickering after-the-fact.

The tone of this year was captured perfectly for me after our only win vs the Reds in game 2 Tuesday. It was Bochy's 1500th win, but as he went out to shake hands after the game he barely smiled, barely tipped his cap, just looked like a guy not having any fun at all.

 

[Heathbar012]

The tone of this year was captured perfectly for me after our only win vs the Reds in game 2 Tuesday. It was Bochy's 1500th win, but as he went out to shake hands after the game he barely smiled, barely tipped his cap, just looked like a guy not having any fun at all.

Great point. The irony of it all is that now they can just focus on having fun. That might not happen until after the trade deadline because of the inherent anxiety surrounding that situation. At least, they can beat up on the Cubbies before having to face some excellent teams. I expect them to go on a tear and fall just short, but it will be nice to watch some decent baseball again. Hopefully, they will at least give the Dodgers a scare, and maybe grab some redemption for '93.

 

[calsnowskier]

Legit trade pieces...

Timmeh - Sabes already said, point blank, Timmeh aint getting traded. Sabes may hold his cards close to the vest, but he doesn't bluff. Timmeh aint getting traded.

Pence - Certainly getting a QO if he does not get traded, so he would require AT LEAST a #30-#35 pick value in return. Not sure he is having enough of a year to command that price tag.

Romo - I have been championing this idea, but I doubt it will happen. Having no closer is more detrimental to a team's psyche than just about anything. Maybe trade him in the off-season.

Lopez - He is valuable, but what kind of return would we get? We gave up Turpin to get him. Remember him? Yea, I hardly do either.

Sandoval - He has another year of team control, so at worst, the new team could offer him a QO, so he should demand a decent price. I am thinking AT LEAST 1 blue-chipper. Prob is that we have no one to man the position for the rest of the year.

Belt - While he has a lot of talent, he has to be classified as a bust at this point. Would we be able to get anything worthwhile in return? I think he has more value as a Giant than as a trade chip.

Gaudin - The "incident" reduces his value. I also think the G's want to keep him in hand for next year.

Casilla - See Lopez. I doubt he would fetch as much as he brings to the Giants.

Scutaro - His contract makes him hard to move. His contract also, in a way, makes him valuable to the Giants. He is a place-holder for Panik/Arroyo/Cavan/etc

Blanco/Torres - I would be OK trading Torres for ANYTHING. Blanco is still under team control for another year (or 2??), and I like him.

Posey/Cain/Bum/Craw - not going anywhere. They are the current core.

 

[msgkings322]

Legit trade pieces...

Timmeh - Sabes already said, point blank, Timmeh aint getting traded. Sabes may hold his cards close to the vest, but he doesn't bluff. Timmeh aint getting traded.

Pence - Certainly getting a QO if he does not get traded, so he would require AT LEAST a #30-#35 pick value in return. Not sure he is having enough of a year to command that price tag.

Romo - I have been championing this idea, but I doubt it will happen. Having no closer is more detrimental to a team's psyche than just about anything. Maybe trade him in the off-season.

Lopez - He is valuable, but what kind of return would we get? We gave up Turpin to get him. Remember him? Yea, I hardly do either.

Sandoval - He has another year of team control, so at worst, the new team could offer him a QO, so he should demand a decent price. I am thinking AT LEAST 1 blue-chipper. Prob is that we have no one to man the position for the rest of the year.

Belt - While he has a lot of talent, he has to be classified as a bust at this point. Would we be able to get anything worthwhile in return? I think he has more value as a Giant than as a trade chip.

Gaudin - The "incident" reduces his value. I also think the G's want to keep him in hand for next year.

Casilla - See Lopez. I doubt he would fetch as much as he brings to the Giants.

Scutaro - His contract makes him hard to move. His contract also, in a way, makes him valuable to the Giants. He is a place-holder for Panik/Arroyo/Cavan/etc

Blanco/Torres - I would be OK trading Torres for ANYTHING. Blanco is still under team control for another year (or 2??), and I like him.

Posey/Cain/Bum/Craw - not going anywhere. They are the current core.

Shorter version: nobody is getting traded

 

[calsnowskier]

Shorter version: nobody is getting traded

 

[calsnowskier]

Rumors circulating that the Rangers want Pence. I actually think that makes sense. They need protection for Cruz (you know, just in case...)

 

[msgkings322]

Rumors circulating that the Rangers want Pence. I actually think that makes sense. They need protection for Cruz (you know, just in case...)

That's the only player with any realistic chance of getting dealt IMO

 

[Stokes1931]

Romo - I have been championing this idea, but I doubt it will happen. Having no closer is more detrimental to a team's psyche than just about anything. Maybe trade him in the off-season.

Doesn't a team have to have a lead for a good closer to make any sense?

I really like Romo. But I'd also like to see what Hembree can do. He has done very well in Fresno, except for a couple notable meltdowns. But that happens to closers not named "Rivera", right? And KCya can close, though I would not hand him the keys to the 9th right yet.

 

[Stokes1931]

Rumors circulating that the Rangers want Pence. I actually think that makes sense. They need protection for Cruz (you know, just in case...)

How much can we get?

Wilmer Font looks intriguing, he is their 4th rated prospect (MLB.com)

Wilmer Font Stats, Video Highlights, Photos, Bio | texasrangers.com: Team'

Someone on Bagg's blog mentioned Nick Williams (#16 prospect per MLB.com)

Nick Williams Stats, Bio, Photos, Highlights | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

Connor Sadzeck is #19

Connor Sadzeck Stats, Bio, Photos, Highlights | MiLB.com Stats | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball

Of course, we could also try and get AJ as a backup.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Legit trade pieces...

Timmeh - Sabes already said, point blank, Timmeh aint getting traded. Sabes may hold his cards close to the vest, but he doesn't bluff. Timmeh aint getting traded.

Pence - Certainly getting a QO if he does not get traded, so he would require AT LEAST a #30-#35 pick value in return. Not sure he is having enough of a year to command that price tag.

Romo - I have been championing this idea, but I doubt it will happen. Having no closer is more detrimental to a team's psyche than just about anything. Maybe trade him in the off-season.

Lopez - He is valuable, but what kind of return would we get? We gave up Turpin to get him. Remember him? Yea, I hardly do either.

Sandoval - He has another year of team control, so at worst, the new team could offer him a QO, so he should demand a decent price. I am thinking AT LEAST 1 blue-chipper. Prob is that we have no one to man the position for the rest of the year.

Belt - While he has a lot of talent, he has to be classified as a bust at this point. Would we be able to get anything worthwhile in return? I think he has more value as a Giant than as a trade chip.

Gaudin - The "incident" reduces his value. I also think the G's want to keep him in hand for next year.

Casilla - See Lopez. I doubt he would fetch as much as he brings to the Giants.

Scutaro - His contract makes him hard to move. His contract also, in a way, makes him valuable to the Giants. He is a place-holder for Panik/Arroyo/Cavan/etc

Blanco/Torres - I would be OK trading Torres for ANYTHING. Blanco is still under team control for another year (or 2??), and I like him.

Posey/Cain/Bum/Craw - not going anywhere. They are the current core.

I don't mind giving up on THIS season, but I don't want to endanger NEXT season with trades now. The problem this season is the same as in 2011 : lots and lots of injuries. There's no reason the Giants can't take it all in 2014.

Timmy and Pence are FAs, and if we make them a QO (Qualifying Offer), we get a sandwich pick for each, after the first round. (I don't expect either to accept a one year contract for ~$13M.) So any trades would have to be "1st round draft pick quality". If so, jump on it. I don't think Timmy is worth much of anything, and the morale hit by trading him precludes it.

Zito, Scutaro, Panda have no trade value at the moment. Zero, Zilch, Nada. And Panda might rebound next year (off-season to recover {and lose weight} as well as it being his contract year). Why trade them for scraps?

Romo and Casilla are signed for 2014, I'd rather keep them.

That leave Lopez, who should have value. He's a machine, he deals, and he's death to LHB. Lopez was nothing until he got to SF. The second half of 2010, and the playoff run, cemented him in every GMs mind as "go-to lefty". The reason his overall 2011 stats don't look so good is that Bochy pitched him to far too many RHBs. His splits against lefty's that year : .163/.245/.185/.430. Lopez is worth money. In another sense as well : he is also going to be expensive to resign, seeing how reliever prices jumped after the new CBA went into effect. Look at what Affeldt got. And nobody will give him a QO, so no draft pick at stake.

I agree about Gaudin - the Giants probably want him in their back pocket to sign as a 4th/5th starter next year - an insurance move. I don't think he's traded.

So Lopez, and Pence are the two who might get traded away, I think. Both can get a real nice return from a needy team. I would say that Lopez would be the one most likely to be traded, as there's no way the Giants are offering him $13M, so they won't get a draft pick for him.

Belt - While he has a lot of talent, he has to be classified as a bust at this point.

I cannot disagree more with the above statement. Belt is the 2nd-best player on the team at this point.

 

[calsnowskier]

Belt - While he has a lot of talent, he has to be classified as a bust at this point.

I cannot disagree more with the above statement. Belt is the 2nd-best player on the team at this point.

I agree. But that is more of an indictment of the team than an endorsement of Belt.

 

[calsnowskier]

And packaging Pence and JLo together to Texas may be a GREAT idea.

Not only would it garner a top-flight prospect, but we would save approx 5M on Herks contract alone. We could then SE that 5M to try to sign him back (if that is, indeed, what the FO wants).

 

[GiantsPackersChamps2011]

If we were to trade Pence I would ask them about Sardinas, Buckel, Gallo

 

[MarcoPolo]

I agree. But that is more of an indictment of the team than an endorsement of Belt.

He's not a star, but he's not a bust. He's about middle of the road (average) in many offensive stats (compared to other 1B).

A couple of weeks ago I posted this (more or less) on another board :

ESPN.com 1B stats, all 1B with at least 250 PAs :
2013 Regular Season MLB Baseball Batting Statistics - MLB First Basemen - Major League Baseball - ESPN

sort by OPS, Belt is 16 out of 28.
sort by AVG, Belt is 16 out of 28.
sort by SLG, Belt is 16 out of 28. (one behind Fielder, 3 behind Howard)
sort by OBP, Belt is 14 out of 28.
sort by HRs, Belt is 18 out of 28.
sort by doubles, tied for 6th.
sort by WAR (Wins Above Replacement), Belt is tied for 8th.

Of the 18 people who have more HRs than Belt, 7 have a lower AVG (for those that think AVG is so important).

Of the 18 people who have more HRs than Belt, 12 have a lower WAR. Think about that for a second. (WAR is a statistic that measures "a player’s total contributions to their team", derived from baserunning, batting, and fielding.) Belt is a pretty damn good defensive 1B. His saves of bad throws, and quality defense does make up for him being "just average". For example, Posey made a number of mental gaffes in Sunday's game - misplays of balls, like the one he misjudged when he jumped and it fell behind him for a bloop hit. Belt would have caught that. Also, there was a grounder hit to the right side that the pitcher fielded, Posey was going to field it, was out of position, and the pitcher had to race to the bag to (barely) get the out. Belt would not have misplayed that. Belt knows when to field and when to cover the bag - Posey does not do as well, because that's not his true position, he doesn't have the experience. I'm not saying Posey is crap or that he should be "blamed" - I'm saying Belt is very good defensively.

So it looks like Belt is offensively an "average" first baseman. NO, he is not a super-star. He is also not crap. I am perfectly happy to see Sabes NOT sign Fielder and play Belt and pay him $500K, and use the money saved so he can sign Matt Cain, MadBum, and Posey to long-term contracts. Ditto for Crawford, instead of signing Jimmy Rollins. You just CAN'T sign a top-notch FA hitter at every position - there just isn't enough money for it. If you bring in a 'better' FA 1B and pay him (say) $10M/yr, then you don't have that money to use to sign a FA starting pitcher. It's a zero-sum game.

 

[MarcoPolo]

HA! I just clicked on the link to make sure it worked, and Belt is now tied for 17th out of 31 in OPS, tied with Adam Dunn. Even though Dunn has 18 more walks, over 20 more RBIs, and 14 more HRs, Dunn's WAR is -0.4 (Belt's is still 2.1).