Third Base Championship Belt

[ImSmartherThanYou]

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...7385-starting-pitching-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...ussion/108551-catching-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...sion/110615-first-base-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...ion/110619-second-base-championship-belt.html

On to the Hot Corner....
Miguel Cabrera 2012-present
Evan Longoria 2009-2012
David Wright 2008-2009
Alex Rodriguez 2005-2008
Scott Rolen 2002-2005
Chipper Jones 1997-2002
Ken Caminiti 1995-1997
Matt Williams 1993-1995
Edgar Martinez 1992-1993
Wade Boggs 1991-1992
Matt Williams 1990-1991
Wade Boggs 1983-1990
Mike Schmidt 1981-1983
George Brett 1979-1981
Mike Schmidt 1974-1979
Sal Bando 1973-1974
Ron Santo 1972-1973
Joe Torre 1971-1972
Tony Perez 1970-1971
Sal Bando 1969-1970
Brooks Robinson 1968-1969
Ron Santo 1965-1968
Brooks Robinson 1964-1965
Eddie Mathews 1954-1964
Al Rosen 1952-1954
George Kell 1949-1952
Ken Keltner 1948-1949
Whitey Kurowski 1946-1948
Stan Hack 1945-1946
Bob Elliott 1943-1945
Stan Hack 1940-1943
Red Rolfe 1939-1940
Mel Ott 1938-1939
Harlond Clift 1937-1938
Red Rolfe 1936-1937
Stan Hack 1935-1936
Pepper Martin 1933-1935
Joe Sewell 1932-1933
Pie Traynor 1931-1932
Fred Lindstrom 1928-1931
Pie Traynor 1923-1928
Jimmie Dykes 1922-1923
Frankie Frisch 1921-1922
Heinie Groh 1920-1921
Rogers Hornsby 1919-1920
Heinie Groh 1915-1919
Frank Baker 1909-1915
Art Devlin 1906-1909
Bill Bradley 1902-1906
Jimmy Collins 1901-1902
John McGraw 1899-1901
Jimmy Collins 1897-1899
Bill Joyce 1896-1897
George Davis 1893-1896
Billy Nash 1892-1893
Denny Lyons 1887-1892
Arlie Lathan 1886-1887
Ezra Sutton 1883-1886
Ned Williamson 1881-1883
Roger Connor 1880-1881
King Kelly 1879-1880
Cal McVey 1878-1879
Cap Anson 1876-1878
Ezra Sutton 1875-1876
Davy Force 1872-1875
Levi Meyerle 1871-1872

Not surprisingly, there's a lot of title changes. For whatever reason, 3Bs generally don't have a long shelf life, which is why there are so few in the HOF. Either they burn out quickly, or they move to another position or from another position.

 

[fordman84]

So it is based more on plate production than actually playing 3B?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

So it is based more on plate production than actually playing 3B?

No, it's about all-around value. If a hitter is so great that it makes up for his defensive shortcomings (i.e. Cabrera), so be it.

 

[gunnarthor]

Robinson in 1969 is a mistake. He was a solid that year but not great. Killebrew, even with his bad defense, would be a better choice. And I see you have Bando for that year, as well. And Santo for 1968.

Killer wasn't a great defender but his 1969 season was pretty impressive. Over 7 WAR, .441 wOBA, 173 wRC+, 177 OPS+.

 

[fordman84]

I still think Beltre is the better 3B. Homer pick, yes. But he is above average at the plate and one of the best 3B defenders in the league.

 

[JR Hart]

Good to see some of the traditional message board whipping boys like Traynor and Kell getting love. Matt Williams is also a very underrated player historically. Good hands and power

 

[romeo212000]

No, it's about all-around value. If a hitter is so great that it makes up for his defensive shortcomings (i.e. Cabrera), so be it.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. Cabrera is not a better 3b just because he happens to play third base. Beltre saves so many runs combined with his offensive prowess its not even close IMO. And I'd say the same thing about you putting longoria up to 2012.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. Cabrera is not a better 3b just because he happens to play third base. Beltre saves so many runs combined with his offensive prowess its not even close IMO. And I'd say the same thing about you putting longoria up to 2012.

Gents, I'm well aware of how great Beltre is. But no amount of defensive prowess can make up for how much better a hitter Cabrera is. Cabrera is arguably the best player in baseball right now even with his defensive weaknesses. The only player who has an argument is Trout. It's about all-around value, but the extremes of a player's skill in one area is part of value. I understand the value of great defense. Beltre's greatness with the glove simply doesn't make up the gap on offense. Plus, not only was Beltre not better than Cabrera last year, David Wright was better as well.

And now that I look back, Longoria was somewhat disappointing in 2011 and Beltre had a better season after having a great 2010. I'll revise to give Beltre 2011-2012. But Longoria was better than Beltre over the remainder of the time frame. Beltre was terrible in 2009 while Longoria had a great season coming off his ROY 2008. David Wright also had a very poor season and A-Rod was injured. So Longoria, somewhat by default, became the Champ. Then, he had another great season in 2010. He was undoubtedly the best 3B in baseball in 2010. Beltre had the first of his great seasons.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Miguel Cabrera 2012-present
Adrian Beltre 2011-2012
Evan Longoria 2009-2011
David Wright 2008-2009
Alex Rodriguez 2005-2008
Scott Rolen 2002-2005
Chipper Jones 1997-2002
Ken Caminiti 1995-1997
Matt Williams 1993-1995
Edgar Martinez 1992-1993
Wade Boggs 1991-1992
Matt Williams 1990-1991
Wade Boggs 1983-1990
Mike Schmidt 1981-1983
George Brett 1979-1981
Mike Schmidt 1974-1979
Sal Bando 1973-1974
Ron Santo 1972-1973
Joe Torre 1971-1972
Tony Perez 1970-1971
Sal Bando 1969-1970
Brooks Robinson 1968-1969
Ron Santo 1965-1968
Brooks Robinson 1964-1965
Eddie Mathews 1954-1964
Al Rosen 1952-1954
George Kell 1949-1952
Ken Keltner 1948-1949
Whitey Kurowski 1946-1948
Stan Hack 1945-1946
Bob Elliott 1943-1945
Stan Hack 1940-1943
Red Rolfe 1939-1940
Mel Ott 1938-1939
Harlond Clift 1937-1938
Red Rolfe 1936-1937
Stan Hack 1935-1936
Pepper Martin 1933-1935
Joe Sewell 1932-1933
Pie Traynor 1931-1932
Fred Lindstrom 1928-1931
Pie Traynor 1923-1928
Jimmie Dykes 1922-1923
Frankie Frisch 1921-1922
Heinie Groh 1920-1921
Rogers Hornsby 1919-1920
Heinie Groh 1915-1919
Frank Baker 1909-1915
Art Devlin 1906-1909
Bill Bradley 1902-1906
Jimmy Collins 1901-1902
John McGraw 1899-1901
Jimmy Collins 1897-1899
Bill Joyce 1896-1897
George Davis 1893-1896
Billy Nash 1892-1893
Denny Lyons 1887-1892
Arlie Lathan 1886-1887
Ezra Sutton 1883-1886
Ned Williamson 1881-1883
Roger Connor 1880-1881
King Kelly 1879-1880
Cal McVey 1878-1879
Cap Anson 1876-1878
Ezra Sutton 1875-1876
Davy Force 1872-1875
Levi Meyerle 1871-1872

 

[da55bums]

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...7385-starting-pitching-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...ussion/108551-catching-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...sion/110615-first-base-championship-belt.html
http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/...ion/110619-second-base-championship-belt.html

On to the Hot Corner....
Miguel Cabrera 2012-present
Evan Longoria 2009-2012
David Wright 2008-2009
Alex Rodriguez 2005-2008
Scott Rolen 2002-2005
Chipper Jones 1997-2002
Ken Caminiti 1995-1997
Matt Williams 1993-1995
Edgar Martinez 1992-1993
Wade Boggs 1991-1992
Matt Williams 1990-1991
Wade Boggs 1983-1990
Mike Schmidt 1981-1983
George Brett 1979-1981
Mike Schmidt 1974-1979
Sal Bando 1973-1974
Ron Santo 1972-1973
Joe Torre 1971-1972
Tony Perez 1970-1971
Sal Bando 1969-1970
Brooks Robinson 1968-1969
Ron Santo 1965-1968
Brooks Robinson 1964-1965
Eddie Mathews 1954-1964
Al Rosen 1952-1954
George Kell 1949-1952
Ken Keltner 1948-1949
Whitey Kurowski 1946-1948
Stan Hack 1945-1946
Bob Elliott 1943-1945
Stan Hack 1940-1943
Red Rolfe 1939-1940
Mel Ott 1938-1939
Harlond Clift 1937-1938
Red Rolfe 1936-1937
Stan Hack 1935-1936
Pepper Martin 1933-1935
Joe Sewell 1932-1933
Pie Traynor 1931-1932
Fred Lindstrom 1928-1931
Pie Traynor 1923-1928
Jimmie Dykes 1922-1923
Frankie Frisch 1921-1922
Heinie Groh 1920-1921
Rogers Hornsby 1919-1920
Heinie Groh 1915-1919
Frank Baker 1909-1915
Art Devlin 1906-1909
Bill Bradley 1902-1906
Jimmy Collins 1901-1902
John McGraw 1899-1901
Jimmy Collins 1897-1899
Bill Joyce 1896-1897
George Davis 1893-1896
Billy Nash 1892-1893
Denny Lyons 1887-1892
Arlie Lathan 1886-1887
Ezra Sutton 1883-1886
Ned Williamson 1881-1883
Roger Connor 1880-1881
King Kelly 1879-1880
Cal McVey 1878-1879
Cap Anson 1876-1878
Ezra Sutton 1875-1876
Davy Force 1872-1875
Levi Meyerle 1871-1872

Not surprisingly, there's a lot of title changes. For whatever reason, 3Bs generally don't have a long shelf life, which is why there are so few in the HOF. Either they burn out quickly, or they move to another position or from another position.

Beltre's 1st great season in 2010???? you have to be joking, is this a candid camera type post that gets people riled up....

If you don't think 2004 Beltre was a great season, then please remove your Miggy argument...completely...because he DID put up Miggy number in 2004.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Beltre's 1st great season in 2010???? you have to be joking, is this a candid camera type post that gets people riled up....

If you don't think 2004 Beltre was a great season, then please remove your Miggy argument...completely...because he DID put up Miggy number in 2004.

Who ever said Beltre's 1st great season was 2010? The criteria (which he listed in his original starting pitchers list) focuses on being elite for an extended period, not just 1 season....otherwise it just becomes a game of hot potato if we were to pick who had the best season for each year.

Beltre was great in 2004, but he wasn't great in either the season before nor the season after 2004....that severely hurts his case. Rolen had a great 2004 as well, and was also an elite 3B in the years before 3B, so he has a multi-year stretch of being great, not just 1 season.

 

[da55bums]

Gents, I'm well aware of how great Beltre is. But no amount of defensive prowess can make up for how much better a hitter Cabrera is. Cabrera is arguably the best player in baseball right now even with his defensive weaknesses. The only player who has an argument is Trout. It's about all-around value, but the extremes of a player's skill in one area is part of value. I understand the value of great defense. Beltre's greatness with the glove simply doesn't make up the gap on offense. Plus, not only was Beltre not better than Cabrera last year, David Wright was better as well.

And now that I look back, Longoria was somewhat disappointing in 2011 and Beltre had a better season after having a great 2010. I'll revise to give Beltre 2011-2012. But Longoria was better than Beltre over the remainder of the time frame. Beltre was terrible in 2009 while Longoria had a great season coming off his ROY 2008. David Wright also had a very poor season and A-Rod was injured. So Longoria, somewhat by default, became the Champ. Then, he had another great season in 2010.


He was undoubtedly the best 3B in baseball in 2010. Beltre had the first of his great seasons.

unless I read the last sentence incorrect?


Rolen... 2002 31hr .265....2005...5 hr and .235....guess I have different criteria...

 

[da55bums]

feel free to add up Beltre's stats between 2002 - 2005 and put them up against Rolen's numbers...

 

[navamind]

feel free to add up Beltre's stats between 2002 - 2005 and put them up against Rolen's numbers...

Okay, if you insist.

Beltre: .272/.322/.474, 108 wRC+, .338 wOBA, 76.6 UZR, 19.3 WAR in 2550 PA
Rolen: .282/.375/.524, 135 wRC+, .384 wOBA, 58.8 UZR, 23.0 WAR in 2140 PA

Beltre played in a tougher park, but that doesn't make up for the Rolen's huge advantages in offense.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Okay, if you insist.

Beltre: .272/.322/.474, 108 wRC+, .338 wOBA, 76.6 UZR, 19.3 WAR in 2550 PA
Rolen: .282/.375/.524, 135 wRC+, .384 wOBA, 58.8 UZR, 23.0 WAR in 2140 PA

Beltre played in a tougher park, but that doesn't make up for the Rolen's huge advantages in offense.

But Beltre had more home runs!!

 

[da55bums]

Okay, if you insist.

Beltre: .272/.322/.474, 108 wRC+, .338 wOBA, 76.6 UZR, 19.3 WAR in 2550 PA
Rolen: .282/.375/.524, 135 wRC+, .384 wOBA, 58.8 UZR, 23.0 WAR in 2140 PA

Beltre played in a tougher park, but that doesn't make up for the Rolen's huge advantages in offense.

you seriously are going to leave out HR's, RBI's, Run's...etc.......not sure where you get HUGE advantage in offense.

it was said Beltre was only good after 2010...I think the point is made...extremely well that it wasn't even remotely correct.

 

[StanMarsh51]

you seriously are going to leave out HR's, RBI's, Run's...etc.......not sure where you get HUGE advantage in offense.

it was said Beltre was only good after 2010...I think the point is made...extremely well that it wasn't even remotely correct.

Beltre loses 2 of those 3 categories, since he had less RBIs and runs than Rolen from 2002-2005

So really, all Beltre has working for him is HR's

 

[romeo212000]

Beltre loses 2 of those 3 categories, since he had less RBIs and runs than Rolen from 2002-2005

So really, all Beltre has working for him is HR's

Yeah, well I have a blind man crush on the guy. Ill admit it.

 

[Swangin]

you seriously are going to leave out HR's, RBI's, Run's...etc.......not sure where you get HUGE advantage in offense.

it was said Beltre was only good after 2010...I think the point is made...extremely well that it wasn't even remotely correct.

Nope, it is being typed that Beltre didn't start stacking seasons together until 2010

 

[Swangin]

Yeah, well I have a blind man crush on the guy. Ill admit it.

I wasn't excited about the contract and really wasn't a Beltre guy. I've never changed my mind about something so much in my life. And it goes way beyond the contribution at the plate and at 3B. My name is Swangin, and I too have a man crush on Beltre.