The 'legacy' BS - LeBron and others

[msgkings322]

Here's the thing. The Cavs won so the narrative is about how LeBron is now for sure a top 5 all timer, defining moment, etc. etc. Fine.

But if Kyrie misses that last 3 and Steph makes his, the Warriors win. Nothing to do with LeBron but then the narrative is "2-5, he sucks, can't win the big series". How is he worse or better just because Kyrie makes a shot and Steph misses one?

Same thing with his time in Miami, if Ray Allen misses that now iconic shot to ice that Finals, how does that change how we view LeBron? Should it?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Ok what if Kyrie and Love werent hurt last year Lebron could be 4-3. See I can do it too. Thanks for the what if's

 

[msgkings322]

Ok what if Kyrie and Love werent hurt last year Lebron could be 4-3. See I can do it too. Thanks for the what if's

Totally missing my point, and I'm actually supporting LeBron here you nitwit.

I'm saying, people are so quick to make 'legacy' comments when they would make totally different ones if some other dude misses a shot. LeBron shouldn't be thought of any less than one of the best all time even if Allen and Kyrie missed those shots and he's 1-6. LeBron should have won Finals MVP LAST year, and this year too even if they lost. He's the best player in the league and has been for years. Why do last second game 7 shots by OTHER PLAYERS define his legacy?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Totally missing my point, and I'm actually supporting LeBron here you nitwit.

I'm saying, people are so quick to make 'legacy' comments when they would make totally different ones if some other dude misses a shot. LeBron shouldn't be thought of any less than one of the best all time even if Allen and Kyrie missed those shots and he's 1-6. LeBron should have won Finals MVP LAST year, and this year too even if they lost. He's the best player in the league and has been for years. Why do last second game 7 shots by OTHER PLAYERS define his legacy?

Yeah but everything comes down to winning or losing right now, even if he was great in his own performances. Not until after he retires and realized what he did with poor Cleveland teams or carried teams will his accomplishments or even failures in some peoples' eyes actually be appresciated. All I know is for that he hasnt done this championship overshadows everything and I think most will look at his past and realize it wasnt on him and is truly one of the greats we have ever seen. I agree it shouldnt matter but it does right now.

 

[trojanfan12]

Here's the thing. The Cavs won so the narrative is about how LeBron is now for sure a top 5 all timer, defining moment, etc. etc. Fine.

But if Kyrie misses that last 3 and Steph makes his, the Warriors win. Nothing to do with LeBron but then the narrative is "2-5, he sucks, can't win the big series". How is he worse or better just because Kyrie makes a shot and Steph misses one?

Same thing with his time in Miami, if Ray Allen misses that now iconic shot to ice that Finals, how does that change how we view LeBron? Should it?

Feel better now that you got that off your chest?

 

[HurricaneDij39]

He is NOT top 5 all-time...Next argument please.

 

[The Derski]

He is NOT top 5 all-time...Next argument please.

In terms of athleticism, talent, skill, and global impact, he is definitely top 5.

 

[tlance]

Here's the thing. The Cavs won so the narrative is about how LeBron is now for sure a top 5 all timer, defining moment, etc. etc. Fine.

But if Kyrie misses that last 3 and Steph makes his, the Warriors win. Nothing to do with LeBron but then the narrative is "2-5, he sucks, can't win the big series". How is he worse or better just because Kyrie makes a shot and Steph misses one?

Same thing with his time in Miami, if Ray Allen misses that now iconic shot to ice that Finals, how does that change how we view LeBron? Should it?

Precisely why it is so stupid to use championships and finals' record as the primary means to determine the best players of all time.

So much of the circumstance of whether or not a team wins is outside of the individual players' control. A degree of common sense is needed in these arguments, but far too many look blindly at team statistics that are important, but still just a piece of the equation.

If Michael Jordan had been surrounded by current 6er like talent for his entire career, would that really have made him less of a player?

 

[tlance]

He is NOT top 5 all-time...Next argument please.

LeBron has clearly been the best player in basketball for 8 or 9 years now. Yes, there were times when people tried to make a case for Curry or Kobe or Wade, but there was always 1 constant at the top. How many guys can you say that for?

I can only think of 1, and that was Jordan.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Totally missing my point, and I'm actually supporting LeBron here you nitwit.

I'm saying, people are so quick to make 'legacy' comments when they would make totally different ones if some other dude misses a shot. LeBron shouldn't be thought of any less than one of the best all time even if Allen and Kyrie missed those shots and he's 1-6. LeBron should have won Finals MVP LAST year, and this year too even if they lost. He's the best player in the league and has been for years. Why do last second game 7 shots by OTHER PLAYERS define his legacy?

thats just how it goes man.

before Game 7 i said legacies will rise and fall with this game- and while i acknowledge its not the most fair thing - its simply how it goes.

you can go back and untie and unpack all the different circumstance and good luck, bad luck etc on the way- and that stuff is important- and just because the Warriors lost doesnt make that a season that was not fun as hell to watch....but the individual legacies rise and fall with like that. Irvingi s not even in position to make that shot if LeBron does not have a triple double and 2 40 point games...

 

[WiggyRuss]

In terms of athleticism, talent, skill, and global impact, he is definitely top 5.

yah....if he would have lost you could make an argument outside of the top 5....but not now i dont think- especially after the historic nature of that comeback and an all time great finals performance

but right now--- 4 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, 3 championships, 11 NBA 1st teams, 7 Finals appearances in 13 years in the league. The best guys he has played with is Wade in '12 and Kyrie in '16- not exactly guys at the top of their careers- though both close.

LeBron has now played in 2 Game 7's in the NBA Finals- won both and was amazing in both. It would be awfully awfully tough to keep him out of a top 5. When you are talking top 5 it gets pretty subjective- but that stat line above just cannot be denied.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

He is NOT top 5 all-time...Next argument please.

The most intelligent thing i've ever seen you post.

Scary!

 

[gordontrue]

LeBron has clearly been the best player in basketball for 8 or 9 years now. Yes, there were times when people tried to make a case for Curry or Kobe or Wade, but there was always 1 constant at the top. How many guys can you say that for?

I can only think of 1, and that was Jordan.

Very good point that I don't think I've ever really heard argued before.

 

[msgkings322]

thats just how it goes man.

before Game 7 i said legacies will rise and fall with this game- and while i acknowledge its not the most fair thing - its simply how it goes.

you can go back and untie and unpack all the different circumstance and good luck, bad luck etc on the way- and that stuff is important- and just because the Warriors lost doesnt make that a season that was not fun as hell to watch....but the individual legacies rise and fall with like that. Irvingi s not even in position to make that shot if LeBron does not have a triple double and 2 40 point games...

This is EXACTLY my point. Even if Kyrie misses, how does that change one little bit how good LeBron was? Why should it matter? I know it DOES matter (for some) but I am saying those people are wrong. LeBron's obvious greatness is no less if Kyrie misses or Ray Allen misses in Miami.

 

[WiggyRuss]

This is EXACTLY my point. Even if Kyrie misses, how does that change one little bit how good LeBron was? Why should it matter? I know it DOES matter (for some) but I am saying those people are wrong. LeBron's obvious greatness is no less if Kyrie misses or Ray Allen misses in Miami.

at some point its just a zero sum game though. You win or you lose. Its rough and it doesnt encompass the nuance and circumstance but i dont know that you can do it any other way.

 

[gordontrue]

This is EXACTLY my point. Even if Kyrie misses, how does that change one little bit how good LeBron was? Why should it matter? I know it DOES matter (for some) but I am saying those people are wrong. LeBron's obvious greatness is no less if Kyrie misses or Ray Allen misses in Miami.

I mean, I agree. We can be smarter than the general perception. All the thoughtful, smart analysis in the world will never overpower the masses of casual fans and their easily swayed perceptions, though.

In sports everything comes down to winning. Sometimes the difference in winning and losing is really small. But that doesn't stop the ultimate result from having a big impact on legacies and the way certain players are remembered.

 

[Wamu]

 

[Shanemansj13]

This is EXACTLY my point. Even if Kyrie misses, how does that change one little bit how good LeBron was? Why should it matter? I know it DOES matter (for some) but I am saying those people are wrong. LeBron's obvious greatness is no less if Kyrie misses or Ray Allen misses in Miami.

It is the same thing in MJ's career. If Kerr and Paxson miss those shots he only has 4 titles instead of 6 most likely. Doesn't change the fact MJ was the greatest. So even the greatest need players around them and players to make big shots. What if Lebron had a Robin in his early Cleveland years. Players can only control what they have and what they do on the court and what Lebron has done on the court is deserving of the top 5 already. But the difference between great and great great unfortunately is winning.

 

[trojanfan12]

If Kerr and Paxson miss those shots he only has 4 titles instead of 6 most likely.

Not sure how you can say that. MJ's Bulls never went to 7 games in the finals. So, even if they lost those games, they would still have had another game to win the title.

I see Lebron sitting right at about #4-#5 right now. If he wins a couple more titles, then he gets into Magic/Kareem territory and is in the argument for that #2 spot all time.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Not sure how you can say that. MJ's Bulls never went to 7 games in the finals. So, even if they lost those games, they would still have had another game to win the title.

I see Lebron sitting right at about #4-#5 right now. If he wins a couple more titles, then he gets into Magic/Kareem territory and is in the argument for that #2 spot all time.

Yeah true but what I am saying is part of players legacies shouldn't depending on others but unfortunately they do and that's the way it is and that is in every team sport. Yeah I see them at about 4 or 5 too.