The John Stockton Thread

[MHSL82]

A step in the right direction, but I doubt he ever goes to the pros.

Stockton to serve as assistant at Montana State

 

[nuraman00]

A step in the right direction, but I doubt he ever goes to the pros.

Stockton to serve as assistant at Montana State

I love how he's coaching Lindsay. This is a great story. Thanks.

This is the perfect direction.

4.3 assists for a team high seems bad. Assists are harder to get in college, but still.

 

[nuraman00]

A step in the right direction, but I doubt he ever goes to the pros.

Stockton to serve as assistant at Montana State

I wonder if he can finally improve China's guard play, if he were to coach those pros. They've always had the worst guards. They take so many bad shots.

 

[nuraman00]

Alex Rodriguez says that when Ben Zobrist was with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Zobrist reminded him of John Stockton, because they both:

1) Did nothing fancy
2) But were great at everything.
3) Were winners.

 

[nuraman00]

Why is it when I search for John Stockton defense NBA Finals, I get mostly pictures of him on offense?

 

[MHSL82]

Why is it when I search for John Stockton defense NBA Finals, I get mostly pictures of him on offense?

Because most pictures of anyone that is searchable is when the searched player is on offense. Often, a caption will state, "John Stockton looks to pick and roll against Chicago." No mention of Pippen, etc.

 

[nuraman00]

Because most pictures of anyone that is searchable is when the searched player is on offense. Often, a caption will state, "John Stockton looks to pick and roll against Chicago." No mention of Pippen, etc.

I bet with certain players (Mutumbo, Rodman, Artest), you can get as many, maybe even more than 1/2, pictures on defense).

 

[MHSL82]

I bet with certain players (Mutumbo, Rodman, Artest), you can get as many, maybe even more than 1/2, pictures on defense).

Yep, those players aren't "most." You forgot Alonzo Mourning and Mark Eaton, just kidding. I wouldn't expect an exhaustive list. You should have mentioned Trey Burke and James Harden.

 

[nuraman00]

Yep, those players aren't "most." You forgot Alonzo Mourning and Mark Eaton, just kidding. I wouldn't expect an exhaustive list. You should have mentioned Trey Burke and James Harden.

You're right, James Harden's defense is also much discussed. Just not in the same manner as Mark Eaton's.

 

[nuraman00]

Because most pictures of anyone that is searchable is when the searched player is on offense. Often, a caption will state, "John Stockton looks to pick and roll against Chicago." No mention of Pippen, etc.

You know that guy who has more steals than anyone in the history of sports? Yes, even comparing cross-sport players who were great at steals, like Ricky Henderson.

I would expect a plethora of pictures of that guy stealing the ball.

Ok, I just looked up who has the most playoffs steals.

Arrrrgh! It's not that same guy!!!!!


Rank Player STL
1. Scottie Pippen* 395
2. Michael Jordan* 376
3. Magic Johnson* 358
4. John Stockton* 338
5. Kobe Bryant 310
6. LeBron James 305
7. Jason Kidd 302
8. Larry Bird* 296


Pippen outshines the Jazz again in the playooffs.

Maybe at a series level?

No, it's Isiah Thomas with 20 in a Finals series!

"That guy" only has 12 in each of the 1997 and 1998 Finals.

NBA Series Finals Leaders and Records for Steals | Basketball-Reference.com

Ok, how about a playoffs game level?

No, Iverson has 10 in a game, and "that guy" only has 6.

NBA & ABA Single Game Playoff Leaders and Records for Steals | Basketball-Reference.com

The Jazz really are a farce in the playoffs. They do so many things worse.

 

[nuraman00]

This was probably a regular season game, not a playoffs game.

 

[nuraman00]

Maybe this one might be from the 1997 playoffs series that MHSL82 likes to talk about.

 

[MHSL82]

You know that guy who has more steals than anyone in the history of sports? Yes, even comparing cross-sport players who were great at steals, like Ricky Henderson.

I would expect a plethora of pictures of that guy stealing the ball.

Ok, I just looked up who has the most playoffs steals.

Arrrrgh! It's not that same guy!!!!!


Rank Player STL
1. Scottie Pippen* 395
2. Michael Jordan* 376
3. Magic Johnson* 358
4. John Stockton* 338
5. Kobe Bryant 310
6. LeBron James 305
7. Jason Kidd 302
8. Larry Bird* 296


Pippen outshines the Jazz again in the playooffs.

Maybe at a series level?

No, it's Isiah Thomas with 20 in a Finals series!

"That guy" only has 12 in each of the 1997 and 1998 Finals.

NBA Series Finals Leaders and Records for Steals | Basketball-Reference.com

Ok, how about a playoffs game level?

No, Iverson has 10 in a game, and "that guy" only has 6.

NBA & ABA Single Game Playoff Leaders and Records for Steals | Basketball-Reference.com

The Jazz really are a farce in the playoffs. They do so many things worse.

Of the top 8, does he have the highest per game average? Not that he should get credit for fewer games, just trying to get the overall picture.

 

[nuraman00]

Here's steals per game average with a minimum of 15 playoffs games.

Player Season Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

Michael Ray Richardson leads with 2.8.


From the top 8 above:

Pippen: 1.9
Jordan: 2.1
Magic Johnson: 1.9
Stockton: 1.9
Bryant: 1.4
James: 1.7
Kidd: 1.9
Bird: 1.8


Ok, we need to break the 4-way tie for 1.9 to see who's really in 2nd. Also, of course a Bull is better than a Jazz again.

Here's expanded decimals:

Pippen: 1.89904
Magic Johnson: 1.88421
Stockton: 1.85714
Kidd: 1.911392

So Kidd is 2nd, Pippen 3rd, Johnson 4th, Stockton 5th.

 

[MHSL82]

Here's steals per game average with a minimum of 15 playoffs games.

Player Season Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

Michael Ray Richardson leads with 2.8.


From the top 8 above:

Pippen: 1.9
Jordan: 2.1
Magic Johnson: 1.9
Stockton: 1.9
Bryant: 1.4
James: 1.7
Kidd: 1.9
Bird: 1.8


Ok, we need to break the 4-way tie for 1.9 to see who's really in 2nd. Also, of course a Bull is better than a Jazz again.

Here's expanded decimals:

Pippen: 1.89904
Magic Johnson: 1.88421
Stockton: 1.85714
Kidd: 1.911392

So Kidd is 2nd, Pippen 3rd, Johnson 4th, Stockton 5th.

I will add one, Stockton was older in his last few series than a few of those, so if those others played longer, they'd lose some of that average.

Yes, I want to have my cake and eat it, too!!!

Totals don't matter because he hasn't played as many games. SPG is better...

SPG doesn't matter because the guys ahead of him didn't play when they were as old as Stockton. Prime SPG cut off at the age of the youngest player on that list at the age of their last playoff game is better...

It doesn't matter if any of them were older and averaged more, because Stockton is the best no matter what!!!

There. I said it. Stockton is the best team ever! (Inside joke to what Nuraman wants me to say about the Jazz in general.)

 

[nuraman00]

I will add one, Stockton was older in his last few series than a few of those, so if those others played longer, they'd lose some of that average.

Yes, I want to have my cake and eat it, too!!!

Totals don't matter because he hasn't played as many games. SPG is better...

SPG doesn't matter because the guys ahead of him didn't play when they were as old as Stockton. Prime SPG cut off at the age of the youngest player on that list at the age of their last playoff game is better...

It doesn't matter if any of them were older and averaged more, because Stockton is the best no matter what!!!

There. I said it. Stockton is the best team ever! (Inside joke to what Nuraman wants me to say about the Jazz in general.)

He would have played in more games if he and the Jazz and Sloan didn't lose in the 1st round 7 times between 1986 - 2001.

 

[nuraman00]

It's also sadly fitting that when I briefly searched for playoffs steals, none were in the Finals. Just another sign that more greatness was needed.

 

[MHSL82]

He would have played in more games if he and the Jazz and Sloan didn't lose in the 1st round 7 times between 1986 - 2001.

It's also sadly fitting that when I briefly searched for playoffs steals, none were in the Finals. Just another sign that more greatness was needed.

You are this close to being banned, Mister. We are to designate all losses and lack of Jazz greatness to Ostertag, the refs, and Jordan. Yes, even in the Western Conference First Round.

 

[nuraman00]

You are this close to being banned, Mister. We are to designate all losses and lack of Jazz greatness to Ostertag, the refs, and Jordan. Yes, even in the Western Conference First Round.

I liked OsterShaq.

No designation to Pippen? He did a lot of the work while Jordan just got the glory. Kind of like Shaq and Kobe. Shaq did a lot of work (Pippen) while Kobe got the adulation (Jordan).

 

[nuraman00]

He would have played in more games if he and the Jazz and Sloan didn't lose in the 1st round 7 times between 1986 - 2001.

You are this close to being banned, Mister. We are to designate all losses and lack of Jazz greatness to Ostertag, the refs, and Jordan. Yes, even in the Western Conference First Round.

As many things as I think Sloan did well (tactically, motivationally), one of the few complaints I had was that his teams fouled too much.

And this, in the playoffs, when fouls are usually let go even more. So the fouling has to be very apparent to happen in the playoffs.

And I don't think his teams fouled because they were doing a no-layups rule, or trying to send a message. I think they fouled from a position of weakness, or getting behind. Or maybe focusing on the wrong part of the floor to guard, then trying to make up.

The other thing is, I don't think his teams defended 3-pointers that well. I think he had a one-size mentality where his teams guard the paint first against all teams, even against good 3-point shooting teams. Against the latter teams, guarding the 3-point line would have been more important then the paint. Then when the other team had a good 3-point shooting game, there wouldn't be an in-game adjustment to prevent that.

Lastly, I disliked his starting of Fisher over Ronnie Brewer during the 2006-2007 regular season. Fisher shot poorly, and I think Brewer's steals and defense and speed were more important. He could also get to the basket and make layups. Yes, he couldn't hit midrange shots, but neither could Fisher that regular season either, so at least play the quicker guy who could make the offense even better than it already was. Plus, like I said, he was better defensively than Fisher.

Brewer was also a young guy whose development and potential was apparent.

I didn't mind how Deron Williams was benched in favor of Raul Lopez and Keith McLeod during Deron's rookie year. Deron didn't play that well when given minutes, and I think he needed to play well enough to earn more playing time first, not just be handed the minutes. So most fans were irate at Williams not playing much, but it didn't bother me, because Deron wasn't that good. Too many mistakes. And he was still getting some minutes to learn, so that was ok. It's not like he was totally benched.

It's similar to Exum vs. Mack IMO. Mack, like McLeod + Raul Lopez, is more stable right now, then Exum (Deron Williams).

I remember the team-wide fouling thing was an even bigger issue in the late 2000s, especially after the hand checking rules made it even more problematic for the Jazz to foul others, and would put the Jazz in foul trouble even earlier in games. I guess they somehow adjusted over the years. It was a slow adjustment, though.