The Colt vs Kirk comparison

[skinsdad62]

We may have won, but we very easily could have lost to arguably the worst team in the league, starting a 30 something journeyman QB. What's worse is we know whats coming this next week.

woulda coulda shoulda is an excuse in a loss so it shouldnt be used to disparage a win

 

[skinsdad62]

Basically you're making excuses why some things are not entirely Gruden's fault, and while I can accept that not everything is his fault - he inherited a hot mess and its still steaming - he has done absolutely nothing in my view that makes us better. I'm not asking to justify all his decisions, or provide excuses why they didn't work out. I'm asking if he has made any clearly good choices as HC, and I find that answer to be no.

IMO the single most important thing a HC can do is hire great assistants. Haslett is an unmitigated failure and he has been since day one. Keeping him was an epic mistake, done out of friendship, not objectivity. Raheem Morris has done nothing to make our young secondary into a solid unit, injuries not withstanding. I had hopes that Kotwica would improve the special teams, but they are still Special Olympics instead. McVay hasn't shown me squat. He hasn't helped Cousins eliminate simple unforced mistakes, Cousins has gotten WORSE over his 6 starts, not better. The play calling has consistently left our best unit - the running game - sitting idle while we sling the ball up 30 plus times a game. We haven't helped the OL at all by asking them to pass protect so much, nor our QBs. Every time Joe Gibbs teams got into a rut, they got out of it by pounding the rock 35 times a game. That was true in 1981, in the playoffs in 1982/83, in 1991, and in 2005 and 2007. Gruden hasn't learned that yet.

I'm just looking for something, anything, that gives me confidence in Gruden and I'm not finding it. Not hope, an actual sign that he's a good coach. Show me a sign...

after 7 games we are ready to kick gruden to the curb

if you get rid of the FO after one year then who would take the jobs ?

you would have fired joe gibbs after 7 games

give the guy time to put his team together

we did some good things

he got niles paul to contribute on offense ,
at least he has put BU o/lineman in place ,
we got djax we got roberts
he got alexander in the lineup and he is a star in the making
look at kearse and his 3 sacks
hatcher seems to be a good pick up . so has clark .
murphy has contributed as has breeland ,
tres way was a great find for us tell me compton (defense) has stepped up decently at ILB

now doesnt he get some credit for that or are we hell bent on the bashing ?

i would say he has made a dent with the "hot mess"

and we still have issue

poor qb play , poor o/line play , special teams arent that good , the secondary is still an issue but geez we have played 7 games and our team had a swiss cheese size amount of holes in it

 

[ElTexan]

Colt McCoy starting is the best thing to happen to your team's chances for victory.

All he does is win.

 

[martinez]

Colt McCoy starting is the best thing to happen to your team's chances for victory.

All he does is win.

too bad its not 2009 anymore

 

[ElTexan]

too bad its not 2009 anymore

This past weekend wasn't 2009 either. He seemed to figure things out pretty quick.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

after 7 games we are ready to kick gruden to the curb

if you get rid of the FO after one year then who would take the jobs ?

you would have fired joe gibbs after 7 games

give the guy time to put his team together

we did some good things

he got niles paul to contribute on offense ,
at least he has put BU o/lineman in place ,
we got djax we got roberts
he got alexander in the lineup and he is a star in the making
look at kearse and his 3 sacks
hatcher seems to be a good pick up . so has clark .
murphy has contributed as has breeland ,
tres way was a great find for us tell me compton (defense) has stepped up decently at ILB

now doesnt he get some credit for that or are we hell bent on the bashing ?

i would say he has made a dent with the "hot mess"

and we still have issue

poor qb play , poor o/line play , special teams arent that good , the secondary is still an issue but geez we have played 7 games and our team had a swiss cheese size amount of holes in it

He didn't suggest firing the coach, he is just looking for any slim shred of evidence that he is the right guy. And sorry, getting Nile Paul to finally contribute is not enough. He said nothing about the front office.

The only part of Kick's post I disagree with, and there was plenty I agreed with such as the assistant coach issue, is the failure to commit to the run. When you have been getting stuffed for a month it's kind of hard to continue down the road of 30 carriers/game. All that does is set your marginal QB up with 3rd and 7 all day long. They ran it 24 times excluding scrambles by Colt. That's not exactly bailing on the run given their lack of success

 

[KickSaveDave]

after 7 games we are ready to kick gruden to the curb

if you get rid of the FO after one year then who would take the jobs ? Bruce Allen has been here 5 years now

you would have fired joe gibbs after 7 games I'm not saying fire him now, I'm saying I doubt he's ever going to be the right guy, but he deserves his entire shot to prove me wrong

give the guy time to put his team together See above

we did some good things

he got niles paul to contribute on offense ,
at least he has put BU o/lineman in place ,
we got djax we got roberts
he got alexander in the lineup and he is a star in the making
look at kearse and his 3 sacks
hatcher seems to be a good pick up . so has clark .
murphy has contributed as has breeland ,
tres way was a great find for us tell me compton (defense) has stepped up decently at ILB

now doesnt he get some credit for that or are we hell bent on the bashing ? What credit does he get for players who haven't helped us win games or play well? We have no backup OL in place, they aren't any better than the starters who suck. Things like "Niles Paul contributing" is not the same as "Niles Paul helping us win games". Paul's fumble killed us vs Houston, just killed us.

i would say he has made a dent with the "hot mess"

and we still have issue

poor qb play , poor o/line play , special teams arent that good , the secondary is still an issue but geez we have played 7 games and our team had a swiss cheese size amount of holes in it

My whole point is, we had major problems for several years, they weren't secret, they we're well known. Gruden knew them, he made attempts to fix them - he simply failed in his attempts. Poor OL play continues. Poor QB play continues. Dreadful special teams play continues. We signed DJax instead of helping the secondary. We drafted Trent Murphy instead of helping the OL. Kirk Cousins hasn't developed at all under Gruden, he's gotten worse.

For the record, I'm not advocating firing him after 7 games. I'm just saying, he's shown me nothing at all so far that makes me think he knows HOW to fix our problems. Every internet message board shithead knew what the problems were, they were glaringly obvious to anyone with eyes. Fixing the problems is what great coaches and FO's do, and ours have shown absolutely nothing to that end result. Nothing is fixed, nothing is better, some things are worse.

Bruce Allen is the first to go. This is all, 100%, his team. These results are all on him. Last place finishes in what now appears to be 4 out of 5 years.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'm a Bruce Allen hater but how can this be 100% his team when he has had final say for like 8 months.

 

[KickSaveDave]

I'm a Bruce Allen hater but how can this be 100% his team when he has had final say for like 8 months.

Bruce was hired before Shanny, and technically Bruce hired Shanny, so Bruce owns Shanny's record here. Also, while Shanny may have had final say, they were a collaborative FO, Bruce owned the FO, the scouts, the salary cap, etc. Shanny may have had final say but can you point to a single situation where Shanny was known to override something Bruce wanted/didn't want that Shanny felt differently? Final say only matters if there is disagreement, the owner knows who he has to side with. I see no evidence that Bruce and Shanny ever clashed on anything. Bruce may have been Shanny's lap dog, but that doesn't speak well at all for Bruce being capable of running an NFL franchise on his own.

Basically if Bruce is "the guy" and was held back by Shanny, then we should see his inspired management starting to show up. Instead we see nothing at all, front office wise or on the field, that tells us things are even heading in the right direction.

 

[KickSaveDave]

And by the way, my Bruce Allen bashing is really just Dan Snyder bashing in disguise. There's a reason why superstars like John Schneider go elsewhere and succeed, and we get stuck with retreads who haven't built or won anything of note - that reason is Dan Snyder. Great talent doesn't want to stick around here and work for that guy, and so called talent from around the league only comes here because they have no better offers - See Allen, see Ceratto.

And then look at the coaching records of all Snyder's guys. He's tried the existing guy who shouldn't have been kept (Norv), he's tried the solid vet who should have been kept (Marty), he's tried the hot college guy and failed (Ole Ball Coach), he's gone back to the proven Super Bowl winner well with Joe Gibbs and Shanny and now both of their legacies are tarnished a little, and he's tried unproven coordinator types who, so far, both look like failures (Zorn and Gruden). He's tried everything and nothing he does works. Maybe thats because he simply runs a dysfunctional business where people aren't empowered to succeed.

Yeah, I know I'm pissing up wind here, but the fact is, Snyder hasn't gotten ANYTHING right yet and it looks to me like Gruden/Allen is just more of the same.

Makes me sad is all....

 

[Iggloo]

I think Trent Murphy was likely a good pick. Orakpo will be gone next year and you will have someone at least with a chance to come in and take his place.

We'll have to see what Allen does with a full deck now that the RGIII trade damage is done. Maybe he can rebuild a team. But...he's had some time and right now I don't see a whole lot of evidence he has this team going in the right direction personnel wise.

 

[Sportster 72]

And by the way, my Bruce Allen bashing is really just Dan Snyder bashing in disguise. There's a reason why superstars like John Schneider go elsewhere and succeed, and we get stuck with retreads who haven't built or won anything of note - that reason is Dan Snyder. Great talent doesn't want to stick around here and work for that guy, and so called talent from around the league only comes here because they have no better offers - See Allen, see Ceratto.

And then look at the coaching records of all Snyder's guys. He's tried the existing guy who shouldn't have been kept (Norv), he's tried the solid vet who should have been kept (Marty), he's tried the hot college guy and failed (Ole Ball Coach), he's gone back to the proven Super Bowl winner well with Joe Gibbs and Shanny and now both of their legacies are tarnished a little, and he's tried unproven coordinator types who, so far, both look like failures (Zorn and Gruden). He's tried everything and nothing he does works. Maybe thats because he simply runs a dysfunctional business where people aren't empowered to succeed.

Yeah, I know I'm pissing up wind here, but the fact is, Snyder hasn't gotten ANYTHING right yet and it looks to me like Gruden/Allen is just more of the same.

Makes me sad is all....

I couldn't have said it better in either of Dave's posts.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I couldn't have said it better in either of Dave's posts.

Agreed. I think we all feel it, we just have a different way of saying it. As for the roster while Bruce was over Shanny it was clear that these were Shanahan picked players. So I can't put the roster all on Bruce Allen. For now.

 

[skinsdad62]

My whole point is, we had major problems for several years, they weren't secret, they we're well known. Gruden knew them, he made attempts to fix them - he simply failed in his attempts. Poor OL play continues. Poor QB play continues. Dreadful special teams play continues. We signed DJax instead of helping the secondary. We drafted Trent Murphy instead of helping the OL. Kirk Cousins hasn't developed at all under Gruden, he's gotten worse.

For the record, I'm not advocating firing him after 7 games. I'm just saying, he's shown me nothing at all so far that makes me think he knows HOW to fix our problems. Every internet message board shithead knew what the problems were, they were glaringly obvious to anyone with eyes. Fixing the problems is what great coaches and FO's do, and ours have shown absolutely nothing to that end result. Nothing is fixed, nothing is better, some things are worse.

Bruce Allen is the first to go. This is all, 100%, his team. These results are all on him. Last place finishes in what now appears to be 4 out of 5 years.

come on bruce allen hasnt been calling shots in personnel for 5 years . shanny did

dude we get a rookie HC and we have way more holes then people are willing to admit

you cant fix all that in one off season

and yes niles paul contributed to the 2 wins

 

[Sportster 72]

Let's not believe Allen and his band of merry men did not have more say than you think. How did he survive? I have been saying this for a long time the one constant over the last 15 years is the owner. I agree with Dave, it makes me sad that we probably won't be good on a consistent basis the rest of my life.

 

[Sharkinva]

The fact that Bruce survived and got a promotion out of the deal speaks volumes to any that will listen. I think Shanahan had ultimate say, right up until 2012 hit. And lets not pretend that Iron clad contract he supposedly had would keep the guy that pays him the salary totally in check. I think Dan started out as Lord Vader, and slowly morphed into Palpatine. He now pulls the strings, but like every good Sith Lord, maintains plausible deniability. And he learned from employing Vinny, all he needs is a good fall guy and he can basically get away with murder. Because as long as he has that point man, there will always be those willing to say... well Dan has been hands off, so you cant REALLY blame him for what happened.

 

[GNG]

Lets not get carried away here. There is a reason why Colt was available to us as a 3rd string QB. No other team wanted him. He played well yesterday. Foremost, he didn't turn the ball over. But he probably will not play that way the next time he plays. We just need to set expectations accordingly.

A very good post. Colt McCoy is a stopgap player and not the answer long term.

 

[KickSaveDave]

The fact that Bruce survived and got a promotion out of the deal speaks volumes to any that will listen. I think Shanahan had ultimate say, right up until 2012 hit. And lets not pretend that Iron clad contract he supposedly had would keep the guy that pays him the salary totally in check. I think Dan started out as Lord Vader, and slowly morphed into Palpatine. He now pulls the strings, but like every good Sith Lord, maintains plausible deniability. And he learned from employing Vinny, all he needs is a good fall guy and he can basically get away with murder. Because as long as he has that point man, there will always be those willing to say... well Dan has been hands off, so you cant REALLY blame him for what happened.

It doesn't really matter if Dan Snyder is making day to day football decisions or not anymore. He's hiring the people who ARE making those decisions and so far he's failed to hire and properly support the right people. His best hire was Joe Gibbs and even an untrained vervet monkey could have made that call. But he saddled Joe Gibbs with Vinny Ceratto and despite Gibbs efforts, they were still below average.

I just have no confidence that Bruce knows how to build a winner, or that Gruden knows how to coach a winner. I've seen no evidence of either being the case, and so while I have no choice but to give them both more time, I'm not optimistic, because these are Dan Snyder's hand picked guys, and Dan Snyder sucks at picking guys.

 

[j_y19]

It doesn't really matter if Dan Snyder is making day to day football decisions or not anymore. He's hiring the people who ARE making those decisions and so far he's failed to hire and properly support the right people. His best hire was Joe Gibbs and even an untrained vervet monkey could have made that call. But he saddled Joe Gibbs with Vinny Ceratto and despite Gibbs efforts, they were still below average.

I just have no confidence that Bruce knows how to build a winner, or that Gruden knows how to coach a winner. I've seen no evidence of either being the case, and so while I have no choice but to give them both more time, I'm not optimistic, because these are Dan Snyder's hand picked guys, and Dan Snyder sucks at picking guys.

At least Gruden has coached winners before, just not in the NFL. Both of these guys are lifetime football guys. They may very well grow into their jobs. Allen is not Vinny. Vinny was an idiot and a pure puppet. Allen is smart, but he may also be a puppet. We need to give both these guys a chance. Hell, lets be honest. We don't have a choice. There are no proven GMs or HCs out there that are clamoring to come here. IF we were to get rid of either of these guys, we would most likely be replacing them with other unproven talent.

 

[KickSaveDave]

At least Gruden has coached winners before, just not in the NFL. Both of these guys are lifetime football guys. They may very well grow into their jobs. Allen is not Vinny. Vinny was an idiot and a pure puppet. Allen is smart, but he may also be a puppet. We need to give both these guys a chance. Hell, lets be honest. We don't have a choice. There are no proven GMs or HCs out there that are clamoring to come here. IF we were to get rid of either of these guys, we would most likely be replacing them with other unproven talent.

Thats just it, we don't really know how smart Allen is. I can't think of anything he's done thats made me think "wow, great decision".

To the second bolded part, thats my point. The truly good ones we have leave here as soon as they can, and they don't come here from outside because they've got better offers elsewhere.