The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[MAGA2024]

There was a clear depression in the NBA after the 80’s teams aged out. The Bulls dominated a less difficult NBA

It reminds me of the recent change of guard in tennis. Novak Djokavic now has the most major championships in history, but he wasn’t rattling them off until Federer and Nadal aged out… and there were no up and coming stars that were kicking the mid-late 30’s tennis star out the door like normally happens.

While Djokavic has more majors, I don’t have him over Federer because Federer had to face better competition and another all time great in his prime. Same goes for Jordan and the Bulls. They beat who was in front of them, but they are harmed by the relatively low level of finals opponents they faced. Mike Tyson has the same problem.. he never had an all time great to beat when he was in his prime

If by "depression" you mean the NBA skyrocketed to unprecedented levels of nationwide AND global popularity, then you would be correct. Otherwise there was nothing depressing about the Era if you actually witnessed it.

As for Jordan's alleged "low level" of Finals opponents (lolol), that Myth has been thoroughly and irrefutably debunked repeatedly, including in this thread.

Jordan dethroned (all-time great) Isiah and the two-time defending Champion Pistons, and then he beat Magic Johnson and the Showtime Lakers (both teams younger than those Spurs LeBron faced in the Finals 3 times). Jordan also beat prime Shaq, and he beat the 97 and 98 Jazz who crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (who won the Championship in 99), beat the Shaq/Kobe and two other All Star Lakers TWICE (including a sweep in 98), and knocked off the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets TWICE... meanwhile the 96 Sonics were arguably better, having swept the 2-time defending Champion Rockets before defeating those same Jazz (before getting squashed by the Bulls).

The 'weak Finals opponents"'narrative doesn't work because it's not true. If you want to argue LeBron's Finals opponents were better, that's one thing. But to claim Jordan's Finals opponents were "relatively low level" is baseless, factless, and laughable.

 

[MAGA2024]

Because their quality of competition was subpar. We've gone around and around on this. The fact the Dubs lost a finals is due to a much better competitive environment they found themselves in than the early 90s Bulls were.

There is a distinct reason MJs Bulls didn't get to the top of the hill until after those teams fell off.

"Much better competitive environment" based on what criteria, exactly?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

"Much better competitive environment" based on what criteria, exactly?

For starters any time teams can shoot effectively from deep it stretches out a defense. But with that said this is a useless conversation with you, do you have anything to add to the board that does not have to do with Michael Jordan

This is all rather boring.

 

[dtgold88]

Lie would be saying I didn’t know. I follow hoops and knew since AD was traded that LeBron was already there. Keep talking back like a dumb fuck though

Once again - and I understand questions can scare the irrational - can you now admit Lebron left the Cavs to join a less talented Laker team (and also the Heat to join a less talented Cavs' team?

come on little fella, you can do it...don't be frightened. Simple yes or no will be OK.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

If by "depression" you mean the NBA skyrocketed to unprecedented levels of nationwide AND global popularity, then you would be correct. Otherwise there was nothing depressing about the Era if you actually witnessed it.

I'm talking about competitive balance, not business. No idea why your mind went there, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

As for Jordan's alleged "low level" of Finals opponents (lolol), that Myth has been thoroughly and irrefutably debunked repeatedly, including in this thread.

Jordan dethroned (all-time great) Isiah and the two-time defending Champion Pistons, and then he beat Magic Johnson and the Showtime Lakers (both teams younger than those Spurs LeBron faced in the Finals 3 times).

You're comparing 80's players in their 30's to 2010's players in their 30's. If you think there's no difference, you certainly aren't up to snuff on context in basketball history.

Jordan also beat prime Shaq

So did Hakeem, and Shaq beat the bulls the previous year.

and he beat the 97 and 98 Jazz who crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (who won the Championship in 99),

You're really reaching. The Jazz are anywhere near the discussion of all time great finals teams. Outside of Malone and Stockton, the team would have won 12 games without them.

beat the Shaq/Kobe and two other All Star Lakers TWICE (including a sweep in 98)

The Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't that good until Phil Jackson got there (sound familiar?). Once Jackson came in, it was an immediate 3 peat.

and knocked off the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets TWICE...

A bunch of guys on the back end of their careers? Wow.. impressive.

meanwhile the 96 Sonics were arguably better, having swept the 2-time defending Champion Rockets before defeating those same Jazz (before getting squashed by the Bulls).

The Sonics also aren't considered any sort of great team historically.. and Jordan had a bad series. He's lucky his team carried him in that series.

The 'weak Finals opponents"'narrative doesn't work because it's not true.

There's certainly some legitimacy to it. You know what has no legitimacy? Someone saying "It's debunked because I've said it's debunked and thus it's not true".

If Jordan had all-time great opponents, you wouldn't have to spend so much time typing paragraph after paragraph trying to elevate them, leaving out context whenever it suits your narrative (and revealing how little you seem to know about the era). Bird and Magic had each other, Lebron had to face the Spurs and Warriors... Jordan's bulls beat moderately good teams at best.

If you want to argue LeBron's Finals opponents were better, that's one thing. But to claim Jordan's Finals opponents were "relatively low level" is baseless, factless, and laughable.

 

[trojanfan12]

As for Jordan's alleged "low level" of Finals opponents (lolol), that Myth has been thoroughly and irrefutably debunked repeatedly, including in this thread.

Wrong. You stating your opinion and pretending it's fact...doesn't make it fact.

Jordan also beat prime Shaq,

Wrong again. He beat 23 year old Shaq who was in his 3rd year. NBA players "prime years" are approx. from age 26 to age 32.

 

[rmilia1]

MJ didn't beat "prime Shaq"

Prime Shaq was late 90s to mid 2000s,

MJ beat a 24 year old Shaq

There's not a person on the planet who thinks a hoopers prime is when they're 24. Especially a center

 

[Mr. Friscus]

MJ didn't beat "prime Shaq"

Prime Shaq was late 90s to mid 2000s,

MJ beat a 24 year old Shaq

There's not a person on the planet who thinks a hoopers prime is when they're 24. Especially a center

It's constant stuff like this which is why @MAGA2024 has no credibility when talking basketball history. Every other sentence he claims something that pretty much everyone else knows isn't true.

I have a hunch he's a youngster or just hates Lebron and will cut any corner.

 

[trojanfan12]

knocked off the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets TWICE

He never played the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets...not in the finals anyway...those teams never made it out of the Western Conference.

This is why you're mocked and not taken seriously.

I'd suggest you go educate yourself about basketball, then come back and try again.

Right now, you're just embarrassing yourself.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

He never played the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets...not in the finals anyway...those teams never made it out of the Western Conference.

This is why you're mocked and not taken seriously.

I'd suggest you go educate yourself about basketball, then come back and try again.

Right now, you're just embarrassing yourself.

It took me a sec (because it was so poorly written), but he was trying to actually elevate the Jazz because they beat the pre-Phil Jackson Kobe/Shaq lakers and also beat the Rockets that had 3 stars that were clearly on the back end.

He's trying to make the Jazz into a legendary team MJ's bulls beat. But if you look at the Jazz Roster, it's nothing special at all. They wouldn't be near the top 10 finals teams of all time

 

[Jordan23]

MJ didn't beat "prime Shaq"

Prime Shaq was late 90s to mid 2000s,

MJ beat a 24 year old Shaq

There's not a person on the planet who thinks a hoopers prime is when they're 24. Especially a center

lol, Shaq had arguably one of his best seasons that year. He was also 2nd in MVP voting which was better than his next 4 seasons where he was 25-28 years of age. He was definitely in his prime, lol

 

[rmilia1]

lol, Shaq had arguably one of his best seasons that year. He was also 2nd in MVP voting which was better than his next 4 seasons where he was 25-28 years of age. He was definitely in his prime, lol

He definitely was not in his prime

Unless you didn't watch him play 98-05

And he didn't finish 2nd in MVP voting in 95-96. He finished 10th tied with Grant Hill

He would finish higher on MVP voting every season after that until 05-06

 

[Mr. Friscus]

He definitely was not in his prime

Unless you didn't watch him play 98-05

And he didn't finish 2nd in MVP voting in 95-96. He finished 10th tied with Grant Hill

He would finish higher on MVP voting every season after that until 05-06

Nice fact check

 

[msgkings322]

lol, Shaq had arguably one of his best seasons that year. He was also 2nd in MVP voting which was better than his next 4 seasons where he was 25-28 years of age. He was definitely in his prime, lol

Why do you make up stuff so easy to prove is a lie? He was not 2nd in MVP voting that year he was 10th (as was corrected above), lol

 

[Jordan23]

Why do you make up stuff so easy to prove is a lie? He was not 2nd in MVP voting that year he was 10th (as was corrected above), lol

Talking 94-95 when he beat Jordan after Jordan barely returned. Try again fuck heads

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Talking 94-95 when he beat Jordan after Jordan barely returned. Try again fuck heads

In 1994-95, Shaq was indeed 2nd in MVP voting, and the Magic dominated the Bulls in the playoffs.
In 1995-96, Shaq was way lower in MVP voting... the claim seemed to say that MJ's bulls beat a Shaq that was 2nd in MVP voting. They didn't. They beat a dejected Shaq who was well on his way out of Orlando.

 

[Jordan23]

In 1994-95, Shaq was indeed 2nd in MVP voting, and the Magic dominated the Bulls in the playoffs.
In 1995-96, Shaq was way lower in MVP voting... the claim seemed to say that MJ's bulls beat a Shaq that was 2nd in MVP voting. They didn't. They beat a dejected Shaq who was well on his way out of Orlando.

Shaq didn’t all
Of a sudden fall off his 4th year after being 2nd in mvp voting. He was still in the prime of his career that season before going to LA. He was more mobile and a force in Orlando than he ever was

 

[dtgold88]

He definitely was not in his prime

Unless you didn't watch him play 98-05

And he didn't finish 2nd in MVP voting in 95-96. He finished 10th tied with Grant Hill

He would finish higher on MVP voting every season after that until 05-06

add that to the lies he's been caught making....but wont own.

 

[dtgold88]

Why do you make up stuff so easy to prove is a lie? He was not 2nd in MVP voting that year he was 10th (as was corrected above), lol

add that to the lie where he claimed Lebron joined a Laker team that already had AD.

I'd offer you 2 pieces of advice, @Jordan23.....either if lying anyway be more creative or even better would be stop lying and use those things called search engines to factcheck...yourself.

 

[dtgold88]

Found this and thought it might help the true nuthuggers out...

GOAT of:
- Rings: Bill Russell (11rings)
- Finals record: John Havlicek (8-0)
- Consecutive Championship: Bill Russell (8peat)
- All-around player : LeBron James
- 3-points : Stephen Curry
- Dunk : Vince Carter
- Assist : John Stockton
- Rebound : Chamberlain
- Steals: John Stockton
- Blocks: Hakeem
- Points : LeBron James all-time leading scorer
- Playoffs : LeBron James
- Regular season : LeBron James
- Finals loss: Jerry West 8x
- Swept: Shaq O'Neal 6x
- Back to back swept : Michael Jordan
- 3x 1st round exit:Michael Jordan
- Highlights: Michael Jordan
- Plumbers competition: Michael Jordan (90's era)
MJ never beat any dynasties, he created a dynasty big 3 superstars super-team in the 90s just to beat the era of plumbers, gardeners, carpenters, janitors.