The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Jordan23]

Not to mention the changes in rules and style of play that helped to elevate these players.

Facts are what facts are. They rewrote what is and isn't traveling in order to help elevate Jordan's game. Don't blame them. It got more people watching and made the NBA more money. I would have done the same thing.

Whoow are you saying they made traveling easier to help MJ? Lmao, please tell me what they did for today’s players then to help them. They get away with one dribble fill court in today’s game

 

[MAGA2024]

MJ fans use blinders to view his career as:
- 63 points in a playoff game (they leave out that they lost the game and ther Bulls were swept)
- “The Shot” (they leave out the Bulls lost in the next round)
- Free throw line dunk in the dunk contest (they leave out it had already been done earlier in the contest, and it was done in earlier contests from greater distance than Jordan)
- 6 years where they won championships
- Ridiculous assumptions that “he would have won 2 more if he didn’t retire” (While forgetting that Jordan came back in 1994-95 and the Bulls lost to the Shaq/Penny Magic rather convincingly)
- The Wizards thing? Didn’t happen

They basically choose to use like 7 years of his career and imprint that on his entire career. Jordan had a historic prime, but outside of it he was just a volume scorer who couldn’t get his team past the elite squads

- No reason to bring up that the Bulls lost because this series was all about how second-year Jordan missed virtually the entire season, came back in time for the playoffs and in record-breaking fashion completely embarrassed a Celtics Dynasty stacked with 5 HOFERS, when nobody "expected" the Bulls to even compete in those games. Jordan, of course, went beyond competing as he took his game to "God" level (as Larry Bird said) and established himself as the best player in a game in just his second season. How is that God-level performance supposed to be a negative on MJ, again?

- The Shot" is legendary because of how clutch it was... again, why is that a knock on MJ?

- FT Dunk? If that's the best you got then you should be with me that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT without debate. BTW never heard that one before... who was doing these dunks back in the day from further out than Jordan?

- 6 Championships years, never once losing more than 2 games in a row, never going beyond 6 games in the Finals, a perfect 6-0 as the undisputed best and most valuable player on the team all 6 times. That's about as close to perfection as you'll ever see. What's not to love?

- No one knows if the Bulls would / would not have won if MJ didn't retire... either way it has no impact on MJ's GOAT status.

- The Wizard thing DID happen. So what? He came back to join a 19-win Wizards team as a 38-year old who hadn't played in 4 years. Read that again. The mere fact that he is held to ANY standard at all (under those circumstances) suggests that he's the GOAT hands-down. But if you wanna hold those 2 years against him, so be it I guess. MJ wasn't perfect, after all... the closest we've seen to perfection, but not quite.

...and yes, when Jordan had Charles Oakley (and rookie Scottie Pippen) as his best teammates he couldn't lead the Bulls past elite squads stacked with 4-5 HOFERS. Again, how is that a negative?

You do know that Larry Bird wasn't serious when he called Jordan "God", right... 'cause it seems like you're holding him to those standards.

 

[msgkings322]

Adam Silver has killed the NBA with all the woke racist stuff earlier n the decade combined with no new changes to create incentives to not shoot 50 3’s a game. Leagues make changes all the time. Silver is a corpse

Killed the what? The NBA is far from dead

 

[Jordan23]

- No reason to bring up that the Bulls lost because this series was all about how second-year Jordan missed virtually the entire season, came back in time for the playoffs and in record-breaking fashion completely embarrassed a Celtics Dynasty stacked with 5 HOFERS, when nobody "expected" the Bulls to even compete in those games. Jordan, of course, went beyond competing as he took his game to "God" level (as Larry Bird said) and established himself as the best player in a game in just his second season. How is that God-level performance supposed to be a negative on MJ, again?

- The Shot" is legendary because of how clutch it was... again, why is that a knock on MJ?

- FT Dunk? If that's the best you got then you should be with me that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT without debate. BTW never heard that one before... who was doing these dunks back in the day from further out than Jordan?

- 6 Championships years, never once losing more than 2 games in a row, never going beyond 6 games in the Finals, a perfect 6-0 as the undisputed best and most valuable player on the team all 6 times. That's about as close to perfection as you'll ever see. What's not to love?

- No one knows if the Bulls would / would not have won if MJ didn't retire... either way it has no impact on MJ's GOAT status.

- The Wizard thing DID happen. So what? He came back to join a 19-win Wizards team as a 38-year old who hadn't played in 4 years. Read that again. The mere fact that he is held to ANY standard at all (under those circumstances) suggests that he's the GOAT hands-down. But if you wanna hold those 2 years against him, so be it I guess. MJ wasn't perfect, after all... the closest we've seen to perfection, but not quite.

...and yes, when Jordan had Charles Oakley (and rookie Scottie Pippen) as his best teammates he couldn't lead the Bulls past elite squads stacked with 4-5 HOFERS. Again, how is that a negative?

You do know that Larry Bird wasn't serious when he called Jordan "God", right... 'cause it seems like you're holding him to those standards.

That’s too much for the leflop fans

 

[Jordan23]

Killed the what? The NBA is far from dead

Ratings are down but not dead

 

[msgkings322]

Ratings are down but not dead

Ratings are up bro

The finals probably not though this year for obvious reasons

 

[Jordan23]

Ratings are up bro

The finals probably not though this year for obvious reasons

Actually down this year from even last year but ok

 

[msgkings322]

Actually down this year from even last year but ok

Playoffs ratings much higher. Regular season much smaller decline

Cap keeps rising, team values keep rising, revenues keep rising. No one killed anything.

 

[Jordan23]

Playoffs ratings much higher. Regular season much smaller decline

Cap keeps rising, team values keep rising, revenues keep rising. No one killed anything.

Sure they make more money now. Think prices have changed on tickets and concessions etc at all? Marketing…..

 

[Wamu]

KD same thing yes

And yet no once have you cried & bitched about him the way you do about LeBron.

Hypocrite much? You sure do.

 

[Jordan23]

And yet no once have you cried & bitched about him the way you do about LeBron.

Hypocrite much? You sure do.

Nobody is nut hugging KD are they?

 

[dtgold88]

Didn’t say he joined AD his first year, I’m well aware he went there failed and had to get AD the next season cause he could do dog shit without him

In fact, yes, you claimed he did join a team with AD on it. I first claimed he joined a middling (or lesser talented) Laker team and you said "AD talentless team?"

You were wrong and got caught again. Seriously, how hard would it be to just own you messed up?

 

[dtgold88]

Nobody is nut hugging KD are they?

nope....nor Lebron either.

But you have a firm grip on MJs, nuts.

Ironic, huh?

 

[Wamu]

Nobody is nut hugging KD are they?

Name one person in this thread that's been "nut hugging" LeBron. You can't do that can you?

It seems you have called anyone that hasn't shown hatred for him like you do a nut hugger.

 

[Jordan23]

In fact, yes, you claimed he did join a team with AD on it. I first claimed he joined a middling (or lesser talented) Laker team and you said "AD talentless team?"

You were wrong and got caught again. Seriously, how hard would it be to just own you messed up?

You actually thinking I thought he was already in LA before LeBron is funny as hell. Once again I was stating a fact that he had to have AD to join up cause he couldn’t do it. Keep trying kiddo

 

[Jordan23]

nope....nor Lebron either.

But you have a firm grip on MJs, nuts.

Ironic, huh?

Hmmm I see plenty of lefaggots gobbling up leflops nuts. You clearly are one of those little weenie lovers

 

[Mr. Friscus]

- No reason to bring up that the Bulls lost because this series was all about how second-year Jordan missed virtually the entire season, came back in time for the playoffs and in record-breaking fashion completely embarrassed a Celtics Dynasty stacked with 5 HOFERS, when nobody "expected" the Bulls to even compete in those games. Jordan, of course, went beyond competing as he took his game to "God" level (as Larry Bird said) and established himself as the best player in a game in just his second season. How is that God-level performance supposed to be a negative on MJ, again?

Since you want to talk merely your rose-pedaled narrative about MJ in the series, Let's talk about it.

1. They were swept
2. Jordan scored a lot the first two games that series, but he also shot nearly double what most people shoot. Game 1 he shot 36 times for 49 points. His legendary Game 2 (Which was double OT, not in regulation), He shot 41 times for 63 points.
3. And, when it mattered most, Jordan fizzled in game 3 going 8-18 with 19 points.

If you're going to be cut-throat on Lebron, then you have to Cuthtorat on Jordan.
- Nobody cares he was injured, he was back, and he played
- He played an all-time great NBA team, and couldn't even get 1 win.
- He was not the "best player in the game" in 1986. Nobody thinks that but you, and it's very revealing that you claim that.
- It's not a knock against him, it's how Jordan pundits like to view the series. "He scored 63 points".. and leave out in double OT, they were swept, and he had a horrible game live-or-die game.

Jordan scored admirably, elitely. Nobody is saying otherwise. But your attempts to glaze it and narrate it as if you have a lotion bottle in front of an MJ poster is just ridiculous.

- The Shot" is legendary because of how clutch it was... again, why is that a knock on MJ?

No knock. MJ pundits just reference it without acknowledging they were beat handily in the next round.

- FT Dunk? If that's the best you got then you should be with me that Jordan is the undisputed GOAT without debate. BTW never heard that one before... who was doing these dunks back in the day from further out than Jordan?

Dr. J was doing free throw dunks in the ABA in 1976.

- 6 Championships years, never once losing more than 2 games in a row

Not really a monster stat.

never going beyond 6 games in the Finals,

I think there's a point to be made there, the Bulls were great at closing out series on the road.

a perfect 6-0 as the undisputed best and most valuable player on the team all 6 times.

Not true in 1995-96. He was only the best player on the court for 1 of those games.

That's about as close to perfection as you'll ever see. What's not to love?

I'm not saying not to love it, again.. MJ pundits just seem to try to spread those 6 years onto all of his years. Jordan lost a lot in the playoffs too. Meanwhile, I hate to say it, but if you're going flop out your "6 rings" point as some kind of gold standard, There's a guy named Bill Russell who has 11 of them, the alpha dog on his team.

- No one knows if the Bulls would / would not have won if MJ didn't retire... either way it has no impact on MJ's GOAT status.

It does in that he quit twice. I'd imagine you'd skewer Lebron if he took a year off. Again, you go cut-throat on Lebron, don't get all soft and fluffy with Michael. Many players have horrible things happen to them and their families and take few games off and are back on the floor. While I'm sure MJ was devastated by his father's death, I just question why he had to quit the sport if that's the reason, and it obviously wasn't the reason because he went to play baseball. So what was the reason? If you put on your anti-Lebron hat for a second, you'd say he's soft. (not to mention his tantrum of refusing to play on the Dream team if Isiah Thomas was on it.. now that's a sensitive snowflake)

- The Wizard thing DID happen. So what? He came back to join a 19-win Wizards team as a 38-year old who hadn't played in 4 years. Read that again. The mere fact that he is held to ANY standard at all (under those circumstances) suggests that he's the GOAT hands-down.

So participating in the NBA suggests he's the GOAT hands down? That's about the dumbest thing I've read.

...and yes, when Jordan had Charles Oakley (and rookie Scottie Pippen) as his best teammates he couldn't lead the Bulls past elite squads stacked with 4-5 HOFERS. Again, how is that a negative?

Based on what most MJ pundits do to Lebron.. saying he was "swept in the finals in 2007" (Losing to an all-time dynasty with a team that would have won 15 games without him), or "Lost to the Warriors in 2015" (without Kyrie and Kevin Love, having Delly and Z as his #2 options)... you can't have it both ways.

If we're going to go cut-throat.. no excuses. Jordan got swept, over and over again. If you're going to jack him, and only him, off for his successes, then we can crush him for his failures. He lost, he was a loser early in his career. He was an explosve volume scorer who couldnt get his team over the hump That was 80's MJ. I'll gladly use Lebron as an example of someone who was better than MJ in his early 5-6 years, and led less teams to greater heights than MJ could, I don't think that can be debated.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Whoow are you saying they made traveling easier to help MJ? Lmao, please tell me what they did for today’s players then to help them. They get away with one dribble fill court in today’s game

The constant joke watching MJ was that he needed luggage because of all the traveling he'd do that others would get called for. I'm not sure you were present in the NBA culture back then if you don't know this. It was completely mainstream.

 

[Jordan23]

The constant joke watching MJ was that he needed luggage because of all the traveling he'd do that others would get called for. I'm not sure you were present in the NBA culture back then if you don't know this. It was completely mainstream.

You should watch today’s games and then go watch the 80’s and 90’s. Let me know which era traveled more lol. My 6 year old could figure that out

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You should watch today’s games and then go watch the 80’s and 90’s. Let me know which era traveled more lol. My 6 year old could figure that out

That’s not the point or what we’re talking about though. How silly.