The 2023-2024 NBA Season

[dtgold88]

Even though he did not do much in the college realm if anything, Phil Jackson coached 11 championships in the NBA. Pretty impressive at the level.

It is for sure.....but I do wonder what he would have done if he ever took on a challenge like some of the teams Brown had (or Pop's in SA the last half decade).

 

[msgkings322]

The only guy who gets graded on that kind of curve for @tlance is Jokic. Larry Brown doesn’t get credit for taking bad teams and turning them around. Larry should have just taken jobs where Jordan was in place or Shaq and Kobe were in place. Then he’d be the GOAT.

Like all GOAT debates there's no way to 'prove' it. I like that idea for GOAT, but winning lots of titles even with stars is not easy either, Phil was surely GOAT at handling and meshing multiple alphas or near alphas. Add in the only guy to win a NCAA and NBA title and Brown is my pick.

 

[dtgold88]

Like all GOAT debates there's no way to 'prove' it. I like that idea for GOAT, but winning lots of titles even with stars is not easy either, Phil was surely GOAT at handling and meshing multiple alphas or near alphas. Add in the only guy to win a NCAA and NBA title and Brown is my pick.

I think I'd put Pop on this level (or maybe above) but otherwise agree.

 

[fightinfunbags]

Like all GOAT debates there's no way to 'prove' it. I like that idea for GOAT, but winning lots of titles even with stars is not easy either, Phil was surely GOAT at handling and meshing multiple alphas or near alphas. Add in the only guy to win a NCAA and NBA title and Brown is my pick.

Great coach. But if you didn’t have the pieces already in place to win a championship Phil wasn’t fucking with you. It’s just that simple. He didn’t take anything from scratch and mold it or craft it. That’s a big part of coaching in the opinion of many people, including myself and most people who have actually spent time in their life coaching sports. People who have coached don’t often get that freedom to pick and choose and say “I’m only signing up for this if we have amassed the best team or at least one of the top 3 teams.”

 

[msgkings322]

I think I'd put Pop on this level (or maybe above) but otherwise agree.

Yeah to me the 'Mount Rushmore' is Brown, Phil, Pop, and Riley in some order, with Spo having a shot to get there and on his way (still quite young so plenty resume to build)

No way to definitively prove who is 'best', not really meaningful in something so vague, depends what you value. Different players, teams, eras, etc. Same as trying to truly prove who was 'best' from MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, etc. Different eras, teammates, coaches, rules, positions, etc.

 

[msgkings322]

Great coach. But if you didn’t have the pieces already in place to win a championship Phil wasn’t fucking with you. It’s just that simple. He didn’t take anything from scratch and mold it or craft it. That’s a big part of coaching in the opinion of many people, including myself and most people who have actually spent time in their life coaching sports. People who have coached don’t often get that freedom to pick and choose and say “I’m only signing up for this if we have amassed the best team or at least one of the top 3 teams.”

Like I said in the post above this, very reasonable to have this take but it's also reasonable to note that winning titles is not easy no matter how much talent you have and basically nobody 3-peated after Bill Russell's Celtics ran the league, until Phil did it 3 times.

But in the end, Brown is my guy over Phil.

 

[tlance]

Those guys all needed superstars, none of them did anything in college. One reason we can argue MJ is GOAT over LeBron is college success.

They all won many multiple championships.

Larry Brown’s one can be chalked up to randomness as much as his coaching ability.

 

[tlance]

I wouldn't call it worship...just a different viewpoint. Pop can clearly win with a lot of talent and same true of Phillip. Could either do more with less like Brown has been able to do? Pop at least is willing to try, I gess, but has yet to do it. Only one I might put on his level of doing more with less is Spo (though his titles sure were not with less).

I honestly think doing more with less is pretty irrelevant in this conversation. And also very subjective.

Getting a group of talented individuals to play as 1 is what it is all about. Few better than Pop, Phil and Riley at that.

 

[msgkings322]

They all won many multiple championships.

Larry Brown’s one can be chalked up to randomness as much as his coaching ability.

We are definitely not in agreement here lol

 

[tlance]

Great coach. But if you didn’t have the pieces already in place to win a championship Phil wasn’t fucking with you. It’s just that simple. He didn’t take anything from scratch and mold it or craft it. That’s a big part of coaching in the opinion of many people, including myself and most people who have actually spent time in their life coaching sports. People who have coached don’t often get that freedom to pick and choose and say “I’m only signing up for this if we have amassed the best team or at least one of the top 3 teams.”

Honestly?

Kind of dumb not to do what Phil did if you have the ability to.

If a coach could choose the Celtics roster, or the Wizards roster to work with, it would be pretty stupid to choose the Wizards.

And a lot of people said MJ couldn’t win because he wasn’t a team player before Phil got there and got him to buy in to playing more within a team concept.

 

[msgkings322]

Honestly?

Kind of dumb not to do what Phil did if you have the ability to.

No one thinks front running is dumb. It's just gutless.

If a coach could choose the Celtics roster, or the Wizards roster to work with, it would be pretty stupid to choose the Wizards.

But if we're deciding which of those 2 coaches is better at coaching, the 'stupid' one has a case they are the better coach if they turn around the Wizards instead of ride the Celtics to a title.

And a lot of people said MJ couldn’t win because he wasn’t a team player before Phil got there and got him to buy in to playing more within a team concept.

True. Phil is easily among the best coaches ever for that skill, being able to work with and maximize superstar and super-ego talent.

 

[fightinfunbags]

Honestly?

Kind of dumb not to do what Phil did if you have the ability to.

If a coach could choose the Celtics roster, or the Wizards roster to work with, it would be pretty stupid to choose the Wizards.

I actually want to coach so this is a really difficult hypothetical for me. The way I think, I’m not even coaching in the NBA. I’m maxing out in college where I can teach the game. That being said, I’m the guy that chooses the Wizards. I’m arrogant enough to think that not only can I make the guys I’m given better but I’m also gonna “coach” the owner and get what I need going forward.

And a lot of people said MJ couldn’t win because he wasn’t a team player before Phil got there and got him to buy in to playing more within a team concept.

Phil was a great coach. I’m just saying that he knew how to win when he had the best in the league.

 

[dtgold88]

I honestly think doing more with less is pretty irrelevant in this conversation. And also very subjective.

Getting a group of talented individuals to play as 1 is what it is all about. Few better than Pop, Phil and Riley at that.

It's also subjective to say they are the best and ignore the incredible talent they had with them. You think, what, Pop just forgot how smart he was the last half decade or so?

I mean, it's not like Brown does not have a title in the NBA and college to help his case, too.

 

[tlance]

It's also subjective to say they are the best and ignore the incredible talent they had with them. You think, what, Pop just forgot how smart he was the last half decade or so?

I mean, it's not like Brown does not have a title in the NBA and college to help his case, too.

Nah.

Cant do that.

College and pro are different worlds.

If we are going to count Larry Brown’s college resume in this debate, then we also have to include all the great college coaches who never went to the NBA.

 

[tlance]

I actually want to coach so this is a really difficult hypothetical for me. The way I think, I’m not even coaching in the NBA. I’m maxing out in college where I can teach the game. That being said, I’m the guy that chooses the Wizards. I’m arrogant enough to think that not only can I make the guys I’m given better but I’m also gonna “coach” the owner and get what I need going forward.

Phil was a great coach. I’m just saying that he knew how to win when he had the best in the league.

Good luck with that.

 

[tlance]

No one thinks front running is dumb. It's just gutless.

But if we're deciding which of those 2 coaches is better at coaching, the 'stupid' one has a case they are the better coach if they turn around the Wizards instead of ride the Celtics to a title.

True. Phil is easily among the best coaches ever for that skill, being able to work with and maximize superstar and super-ego talent.

I couldn’t disagree more about the “gutless” thing.

In fact, I will make the exact opposite case.

You take the top job available, high expectations and pressure come with it.

You fall short, you get the blame. Not the players.

Take an average team and you get a window of time without any real expectations or pressure.

That is why UD said the Wizards job is better than the Laker job. Lakers job comes with high pressure and expectation, but probably not high probability of reaching those expectations.

Wizards job comes with 0 pressure or expectation.

 

[msgkings322]

I couldn’t disagree more about the “gutless” thing.

In fact, I will make the exact opposite case.

You take the top job available, high expectations and pressure come with it.

You fall short, you get the blame. Not the players.

Take an average team and you get a window of time without any real expectations or pressure.

That is why UD said the Wizards job is better than the Laker job. Lakers job comes with high pressure and expectation, but probably not high probability of reaching those expectations.

Wizards job comes with 0 pressure or expectation.

Fair points

 

[fightinfunbags]

Good luck with that.

Football guys and basketball guys are built differently.

 

[dtgold88]

Nah.

Cant do that.

College and pro are different worlds.

If we are going to count Larry Brown’s college resume in this debate, then we also have to include all the great college coaches who never went to the NBA.

No we don't since Brown did go to the NBA...that's kooky talk.

do you think Pop just got dumb the last half decade or so? Senile, maybe?

 

[dtgold88]

I couldn’t disagree more about the “gutless” thing.

In fact, I will make the exact opposite case.

You take the top job available, high expectations and pressure come with it.

You fall short, you get the blame. Not the players.

Take an average team and you get a window of time without any real expectations or pressure.

That is why UD said the Wizards job is better than the Laker job. Lakers job comes with high pressure and expectation, but probably not high probability of reaching those expectations.

Wizards job comes with 0 pressure or expectation.

Those are all good points......though once Phillip (or any coach) established himself he'd have gotten a longer leash if he took the bigger challenge IMO.

Do you agree with my opinion if he were not such a disaster as a FO exec and the Knicks had some elite talent he'd have taken that gig himself as the coach?