So, Is The "U" Back?

[Across The Field]

Do you realize how dumb you sound?!? Ryan Day has literally never been a HC, yet you are saying UM, by hiring a coach like Harbaugh was a splash hire

Wow. Just when I thought the homer in you couldn’t get any worse.

I don't think you know what the phrase "splash hire" means, as Day was probably one of the least "splashy" hires in recent memory at a big-time program.

 

[Across The Field]

My bad — I didn’t realize you talked personally to the recruits. I take it all back.

The best part is — you had no idea 247 puts out a list for recruiters and you had to run and look at it. Makes it priceless when you want to talk about other people’s football knowledge

I've known about their recruiting rankings and discussed them on this board several times before, dumbass. It's not my fault you don't know what you're talking about.

So I'm bored by your trolling and lack of knowledge about football. To recap - you believe Harbaugh is an elite coach/talent developer, but Ohio State offering online classes is the only reason we're beating Harbaugh's teams by an average of almost 3 TDs in his 5 years at michigan.

Funniest thing about it - Harbaugh's best team who almost beat Ohio State was entirely led by upper-classmen that were recruited by Hoke. How incredibly embarrassing for your messiah.

Oh well. Enjoy your excuses and mediocrity.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I've known about their recruiting rankings and discussed them on this board several times before, dumbass. It's not my fault you don't know what you're talking about.

So I'm bored by your trolling and lack of knowledge about football. To recap - you believe Harbaugh is an elite coach/talent developer, but Ohio State offering online classes is the only reason we're beating Harbaugh's teams by an average of almost 3 TDs in his 5 years at michigan.

Funniest thing about it - Harbaugh's best team who almost beat Ohio State was entirely led by upper-classmen that were recruited by Hoke. How incredibly embarrassing for your messiah.

Oh well. Enjoy your excuses and mediocrity.

Suuuuuuuuure you did. That’s why you ran to google, right after I said it.

It is also priceless that you talk about football knowledge, as your own former OSU player literally 3 weeks ago said the EXACT same thing I said.

Now that we are done. Can you tell me more about your discussions with your recruits?

 

[ericd7633]

Except Michigan has been regularly pulling top 10 classes. How can Michigan possibly compete with only 3 top ten classes the last 4 years? It’s so unfair that they are able to recruit across the nation and draw talent from all over rather than just in state.

If what ATF said was correct and Michigan average recruiting rank the last 4 years was 10th, Michigan is 11th in P5 winning percentage over the same span. They've performed about where they should have.

 

[Across The Field]

If what ATF said was correct and Michigan average recruiting rank the last 4 years was 10th, Michigan is 11th in P5 winning percentage over the same span. They've performed about where they should have.

The problem is, teams like Penn State, Notre Dame, Washington, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma all had recruiting class averages lower than michigan, but finish ahead of them in win percentage over that time frame.

Thankfully enough, there are programs out there who are underachieving more than michigan. Otherwise, people might start thinking Harbaugh is overrated.

 

[7Samurai13]

If what ATF said was correct and Michigan average recruiting rank the last 4 years was 10th, Michigan is 11th in P5 winning percentage over the same span. They've performed about where they should have.

But lack of talent should never be an excuse as to why they lose every single game in which they are the underdog. In nearly every game they have played, except the Ohio State and Alabama games, they have had superior talent as compared to their opponents.

 

[ericd7633]

The problem is, teams like Penn State, Notre Dame, Washington, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma all had recruiting class averages lower than michigan, but finish ahead of them in win percentage over that time frame.

Thankfully enough, there are programs out there who are underachieving more than michigan. Otherwise, people might start thinking Harbaugh is overrated.

Fwiw OU and Washington have had much easier schedules. And ND has had an easier schedule over that time frame, but that one is close. And Michigan has lost 4 meaningless bowl games at the end.

 

[ericd7633]

But lack of talent should never be an excuse as to why they lose every single game in which they are the underdog. In nearly every game they have played, except the Ohio State and Alabama games, they have had superior talent as compared to their opponents.

I would say over the last 4 years the talent between PSU and Michigan is comparable. They are 2-2. They are 1-1 against ND with comparable talent. Their biggest problem is not being able to win away from home against top 10 teams. But Michigan isn't a top 10 program under Harbaugh. They are probably 11-13 or so. Which is where they should be based on talent.

 

[7Samurai13]

I would say over the last 4 years the talent between PSU and Michigan is comparable. They are 2-2. They are 1-1 against ND with comparable talent. Their biggest problem is not being able to win away from home against top 10 teams. But Michigan isn't a top 10 program under Harbaugh. They are probably 11-13 or so. Which is where they should be based on talent.

Penn State Recruiting classes the last 4 years
2019 - 12
2018 - 6
2017 - 15
2016 - 20

So one top 10 vs Michigan’s three. Michigan coaching staff just does a poor job of coaching up their talent.

 

[7Samurai13]

Notre Dame recruiting the last 4 years
2019 - 16
2018 - 10
2017 - 10
2016 - 15

now Michigan’s
2019 - 8
2018 - 22
2017 - 5
2016 - 8

 

[BamaDude]

Is the U back?

In a word, no.

 

[Across The Field]

Fwiw OU and Washington have had much easier schedules. And ND has had an easier schedule over that time frame, but that one is close. And Michigan has lost 4 meaningless bowl games at the end.

I wouldn't call those bowl games "meaningless". They're still unable to win them far more often than not under Harbaugh. There's a major culture problem there, and the coaches are failing dramatically to change it.

Bottom line is, it's such a convenient excuse for michigan fans to look only at recruiting stars to explain why OSU has owned them for so long. Fact is, though, they have brought in plenty of talent over the past several years under Harbaugh.

He's failed to develop a QB or any semblance of a passing attack (average passing offense rank of 75th nationally in his 5 years) despite bringing in multiple 4-5* WRs and 4-5* QBs, and while having a bombs-away passing attack isn't essential, he's also failed to build any sort of rushing attack despite bringing in multiple 4* RBs (only one 1,000 yard rusher in 5 years, average rush offense rank of 55th over 5 years).

He's also brought in plenty of higher-end offensive line recruits (12 offensive linemen rated 4* over 5 years), not to mention that for his first couple of years, the cupboard was stocked with upper-classmen that led his best season and then were drafted - 11 michigan players were drafted in 2017 alone, yet only 7 have been drafted over the last 2 years.

Unless the goal when hiring Harbaugh and making him one of the highest-paid coaches in the nation was to just show improvement over Hoke, Harbaugh has been an abject failure. His 2016 season was by far his best season (two top 10 wins, 3 losses by a combined 5 points), but it's gotten worse since then as Hoke's recruits have left and Harbaugh's have taken over. This isn't a coincidence.

 

[Across The Field]

Notre Dame recruiting the last 4 years
2019 - 16
2018 - 10
2017 - 10
2016 - 15

now Michigan’s
2019 - 8
2018 - 22
2017 - 5
2016 - 8

For the recruiting classes between 2015-2019, the average star ranking per prospect:

michigan: 89.7
Notre Dame: 89.9
Penn State: 89.6

So almost identical. Ohio State's is 92.5 over that timeframe, so while higher, we're not talking about some monumental difference. However, while we've had far closer games with PSU, even losing once, while we just smoke michigan. It's pathetic that the excuse of OSU getting up for the michigan game is being brought up, considering we usually enter that game with everything to lose while michigan has the opportunity to ruin our season, yet according to Devin Bush, they've entered that game just hoping OSU has a bad day rather than attacking it with the idea they could win. The program has become neutered under Harbaugh, yet so many of them stick by him just because he's better than Hoke.

 

[ericd7633]

I wouldn't call those bowl games "meaningless". They're still unable to win them far more often than not under Harbaugh. There's a major culture problem there, and the coaches are failing dramatically to change it.

Bottom line is, it's such a convenient excuse for michigan fans to look only at recruiting stars to explain why OSU has owned them for so long. Fact is, though, they have brought in plenty of talent over the past several years under Harbaugh.

He's failed to develop a QB or any semblance of a passing attack (average passing offense rank of 75th nationally in his 5 years) despite bringing in multiple 4-5* WRs and 4-5* QBs, and while having a bombs-away passing attack isn't essential, he's also failed to build any sort of rushing attack despite bringing in multiple 4* RBs (only one 1,000 yard rusher in 5 years, average rush offense rank of 55th over 5 years).

He's also brought in plenty of higher-end offensive line recruits (12 offensive linemen rated 4* over 5 years), not to mention that for his first couple of years, the cupboard was stocked with upper-classmen that led his best season and then were drafted - 11 michigan players were drafted in 2017 alone, yet only 7 have been drafted over the last 2 years.

Unless the goal when hiring Harbaugh and making him one of the highest-paid coaches in the nation was to just show improvement over Hoke, Harbaugh has been an abject failure. His 2016 season was by far his best season (two top 10 wins, 3 losses by a combined 5 points), but it's gotten worse since then as Hoke's recruits have left and Harbaugh's have taken over. This isn't a coincidence.

They have brought in talent. They've brought in some great players, no doubt. Just not to the level that OSU has. It's really not that close either. He obviously hasn't developed those players as well as OSU has either. I never claimed that. I just don't think you're being fair in evaluating the talent discrepancy. It's pretty big. And like I said OSU is better at development. And like I also said, it is concerning the games against OSU have been more lopsided the last couple years.

 

[ericd7633]

Notre Dame recruiting the last 4 years
2019 - 16
2018 - 10
2017 - 10
2016 - 15

now Michigan’s
2019 - 8
2018 - 22
2017 - 5
2016 - 8

I'd say PSU, ND, and Michigan have all been comparable over that time frame. That's why I don't think it's a coincidence the home team has won all those games the last 4 years in all those instances. Michigan was at least competitive in a couple of the away games.

 

[belcherboy]

Ok. Over/under 7 wins for the Canes next season. Man, they play at Michigan State. Damn, I didn't know that.

Saturday
Sep. 5 Temple Owls
Saturday
Sep. 12 Wagner Seahawks
Saturday
Sep. 19 UAB Blazers
Saturday
Sep. 26 at Michigan State Spartans
Date TBA at Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets
Date TBA Duke Blue Devils
Date TBA Florida State Seminoles
Date TBA North Carolina Tar Heels
Date TBA Pitt Panthers
Date TBA at Virginia Cavaliers
Date TBA at Virginia Tech Hokies
Date TBA at Wake Forest Demon Deacons

I'd go over. I think they are good for 9 wins this year. Although I'm probably putting too much stock in that new QB, and expecting too little from the ACC again next year. I could see them start the season 6-0 or better.

 

[Across The Field]

They have brought in talent. They've brought in some great players, no doubt. Just not to the level that OSU has. It's really not that close either. He obviously hasn't developed those players as well as OSU has either. I never claimed that. I just don't think you're being fair in evaluating the talent discrepancy. It's pretty big. And like I said OSU is better at development. And like I also said, it is concerning the games against OSU have been more lopsided the last couple years.

I put up the average star rating for OSU vs ND/PSU/michigan in my last post. The average recruit for OSU is 92.5 while michigan's is 89.7, which is a gap, but it isn't like it's a 7-8 point difference. We shouldn't be beating them by an average of almost 3 TDs each season, which we have with Harbaugh there. I'm not saying OSU hasn't brought in better recruits, and that our talent gap hasn't contributed to our lopsided advantage in the series, but it's not the main reason.

Recruiting stars mean nothing at all without elite coaching and development. You can have very good, sometimes elite teams without having elite recruiting rankings, but I've never seen a team be elite without at the very least a high end coach. What makes michigan's situation even worse is that they're not paying Harbaugh the money they are to just be a decent/solid team. I have no doubt their recruiting situation would be better if he wasn't such a mediocre coach. Since his 2016 season, which was led almost entirely by Hoke's recruits, they have arguably regressed. His own former star player is pointing out how sad the attitude is there. That's entirely on the coaches.

 

[ericd7633]

I put up the average star rating for OSU vs ND/PSU/michigan in my last post. The average recruit for OSU is 92.5 while michigan's is 89.7, which is a gap, but it isn't like it's a 7-8 point difference. We shouldn't be beating them by an average of almost 3 TDs each season, which we have with Harbaugh there. I'm not saying OSU hasn't brought in better recruits, and that our talent gap hasn't contributed to our lopsided advantage in the series, but it's not the main reason.

Recruiting stars mean nothing at all without elite coaching and development. You can have very good, sometimes elite teams without having elite recruiting rankings, but I've never seen a team be elite without at the very least a high end coach. What makes michigan's situation even worse is that they're not paying Harbaugh the money they are to just be a decent/solid team. I have no doubt their recruiting situation would be better if he wasn't such a mediocre coach. Since his 2016 season, which was led almost entirely by Hoke's recruits, they have arguably regressed. His own former star player is pointing out how sad the attitude is there. That's entirely on the coaches.

That's still a pretty sizable gap IMO. And the talent gap isn't the only reason, but it's the biggest one.

 

[Across The Field]

That's still a pretty sizable gap IMO. And the talent gap isn't the only reason, but it's the biggest one.

Nah. There are way too many examples in college football over the past 5 years of why it's not. Coaching and development is exponentially more important than recruiting stars. It's why Wisconsin has been a better program that michigan, it's why Oklahoma State has been a better program than Texas, it's why Utah has been a better program than USC, it's why Mississippi State has been a better program than Tennessee, etc. It's what makes and breaks programs.

 

[ericd7633]

Nah. There are way too many examples in college football over the past 5 years of why it's not. Coaching and development is exponentially more important than recruiting stars. It's why Wisconsin has been a better program that michigan, it's why Oklahoma State has been a better program than Texas, it's why Utah has been a better program than USC, it's why Mississippi State has been a better program than Tennessee, etc. It's what makes and breaks programs.

Well USC has won a Rose bowl and Pac 12 Championship Game in the last 4 years and Utah has not. Texas has won a Sugar Bowl and at least played for a big 12 Championship, Oklahoma State has not. And there hasn't been much difference the last 4 years in terms of performance on the field and recruiting between Miss St and Tennessee. Wisconsin is the one team I'll agree with, but they aren't ever going to sniff winning a title in CFB because they don't recruit well enough. They can beat a team at home with more talent, but they aren't beating a team on the road/neutral that has more talent. We've seen that play out the last couple seasons.