Game Thread: Should The Florida Panthers Relocate Somewhere Else?

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Not to put words in BBB's mouth, but I think a better term is "healthy/thriving" franchise, and not a successful one. Success is on the ice, but you can't argue that either FLA team is really healthy. That's seen in the financials, the TV numbers, merchandise sales. The Panthers have an excuse, Tampa really doesn't. If Tampa can't attract people to watch on TV with one of the best players in the world on their team, nothing will work.

I will concur with this. Like with Anaheim, success on the ice simply hasn't translated to their bottom line.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

We are speaking in the context of franchise viability, not on-ice results.

I've made the argument a thousand times, Tampa draws but ticket prices are cheaper than cheap and they have comparable TV numbers to Florida. It's tough to remain competitive financially in such a situation.

Yup

Tbays average ticket price was $20 below the nhl average to start last season (and that was with tbay increasing their ticket prices 10% for last season)

5th lowest ticket in the league

 

[Comeds]

I hope they wait until after their next spend a few ton on free agency day to reach cap floor event. Its so exciting!

 

[juliansteed]

This question will be much easier answered in the next 2-5 years. The Panthers are on the verge of potentially having 1 of the most exciting, young upstart teams in the NHL. If that happens and it doesn't result in a significant increase in revenue then they should move for sure.

 

[slapshot]

Tampa is not a successful franchise and it bugs me very much when it is exalted as one. Successful franchises have fans that watch it on television. Tampa does not. Ergo, Tampa is not a successful hockey team. Period.

While were on it, neither is Anaheim.

You're right. But, occasionally it takes a few years (or decades). We're doing ok now, but mainly because the NBA franchise and the Verizon Center are all owned by the same entity.

 

[RP-29]

Send 'em to Milwaukee.

I approve this message.

 

[DevilishWon]

I voted for IPW, but if forced to chose I say no, because my in-laws live in Ft Lauderdale and I can catch a game when we visit in winter.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Tampa is not a successful franchise and it bugs me very much when it is exalted as one. Successful franchises have fans that watch it on television. Tampa does not. Ergo, Tampa is not a successful hockey team. Period.

While were on it, neither is Anaheim.

That's an awfully narrow definition. I'm not sure what your exact standard is for successful, but 3 of the 5 teams with the lowest TV viewership (not ratings) last year posted a positive net income, including Colorado (barely positive), Dallas, and Columbus. (For the record, I used last year's TV ratings/viewership because I wanted to use the same year's data for both income and TV, so I know some of these may have changed this year as certain teams got better or worse, but the Forbes data isn't out and won't be for about 4 more months).

Ratings-wise, LA, Anaheim, NYI, and NJ are all in the bottom 5 with 3 of those 4 losing money.

On the flip-side, Buffalo had the 2nd highest rating and STL was 5th, but both lost money still.

My point being that TV viewership/ratings alone isn't that good of an indicator of success.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

That's an awfully narrow definition. I'm not sure what your exact standard is for successful, but 3 of the 5 teams with the lowest TV viewership (not ratings) last year posted a positive net income, including Colorado (barely positive), Dallas, and Columbus. (For the record, I used last year's TV ratings/viewership because I wanted to use the same year's data for both income and TV, so I know some of these may have changed this year as certain teams got better or worse, but the Forbes data isn't out and won't be for about 4 more months).

Ratings-wise, LA, Anaheim, NYI, and NJ are all in the bottom 5 with 3 of those 4 losing money.

On the flip-side, Buffalo had the 2nd highest rating and STL was 5th, but both lost money still.

My point being that TV viewership/ratings alone isn't that good of an indicator of success.

I pretty much agree.

On a side note...the current CBA, and the financial climate it promotes, is well and truly fucked if the Sabres are losing money (unless they have some crippling debt that I'm not aware of). Buffalo fans show up to games, watch games and buy merchandise.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I pretty much agree.

On a side note...the current CBA, and the financial climate it promotes, is well and truly fucked if the Sabres are losing money (unless they have some crippling debt that I'm not aware of). Buffalo fans show up to games, watch games and buy merchandise.

Considering all the money they spend on players and they haven't made the playoffs in three seasons and have only made the playoffs twice in seven seasons, not having those playoff games to get even more revenue adds up as time goes on

Now I'm not saying this is the only reason, there could be other reasons, but I would think that has something to do with that

 

[Cobiemonster]

That's an awfully narrow definition. I'm not sure what your exact standard is for successful, but 3 of the 5 teams with the lowest TV viewership (not ratings) last year posted a positive net income, including Colorado (barely positive), Dallas, and Columbus. (For the record, I used last year's TV ratings/viewership because I wanted to use the same year's data for both income and TV, so I know some of these may have changed this year as certain teams got better or worse, but the Forbes data isn't out and won't be for about 4 more months).

Ratings-wise, LA, Anaheim, NYI, and NJ are all in the bottom 5 with 3 of those 4 losing money.

On the flip-side, Buffalo had the 2nd highest rating and STL was 5th, but both lost money still.

My point being that TV viewership/ratings alone isn't that good of an indicator of success.

Also, I totally agree with this statement too

 

[esls79]

By all metrics (minus that odd Stanley Cup), Anaheim isn't traditionally successful. But then again, they aren't a traditional team nor market. The areas youth hockey program has really picked up from next to nothing to something rather remarkable in the last decade. Coupled with the recent mini-dynasty in LA, the area hockey scene has never looked better.

Also, using a net operating loss isn't a good indicator of financial health - you can carry those forward in tax law so one poor year can offset many decent years.

Ratings may mean something in a traditional hockey market and in Canada, but in a huge metro area like SoCal, they mean just slightly more than jack shit. Just slightly more.

To answer the poll question, the Panthers should move to Miami proper first and if that isn't in the cards, then move them to Vegas. Or Quebec City. Or Minneapolis. St. Paul has a team, it's about time Minneapolis got one of their own.

 

[davnlaguna]

That's an awfully narrow definition. I'm not sure what your exact standard is for successful, but 3 of the 5 teams with the lowest TV viewership (not ratings) last year posted a positive net income, including Colorado (barely positive), Dallas, and Columbus. (For the record, I used last year's TV ratings/viewership because I wanted to use the same year's data for both income and TV, so I know some of these may have changed this year as certain teams got better or worse, but the Forbes data isn't out and won't be for about 4 more months).

Ratings-wise, LA, Anaheim, NYI, and NJ are all in the bottom 5 with 3 of those 4 losing money.

On the flip-side, Buffalo had the 2nd highest rating and STL was 5th, but both lost money still.

My point being that TV viewership/ratings alone isn't that good of an indicator of success.

I don't know (without looking it up) what the other teams take in on tv. I do know that the Kings were getting 20 mil a year and now get 250 over the next 10 years. The sharks get 7 mil a year from their owner TV deal for the next 14 years( I think I read that somewhere)

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

By all metrics (minus that odd Stanley Cup), Anaheim isn't traditionally successful. But then again, they aren't a traditional team nor market. The areas youth hockey program has really picked up from next to nothing to something rather remarkable in the last decade. Coupled with the recent mini-dynasty in LA, the area hockey scene has never looked better.

Also, using a net operating loss isn't a good indicator of financial health - you can carry those forward in tax law so one poor year can offset many decent years.

Ratings may mean something in a traditional hockey market and in Canada, but in a huge metro area like SoCal, they mean just slightly more than jack shit. Just slightly more.

To answer the poll question, the Panthers should move to Miami proper first and if that isn't in the cards, then move them to Vegas. Or Quebec City. Or Minneapolis. St. Paul has a team, it's about time Minneapolis got one of their own.

Perhaps someone else can confirm for me, but I don't think the American Airlines Arena (where the Heat play) is currently capable of supporting hockey. While I agree that being in the city would be helpful, if they can't play at AAA and with an arena in Sunrise already, there's no way that they manage to get a new place built.

Especially after the debacle with Marlins Park, which will end up costing taxpayers nearly $2.5B by the time it's paid off.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I pretty much agree.

On a side note...the current CBA, and the financial climate it promotes, is well and truly fucked if the Sabres are losing money (unless they have some crippling debt that I'm not aware of). Buffalo fans show up to games, watch games and buy merchandise.

Considering all the money they spend on players and they haven't made the playoffs in three seasons and have only made the playoffs twice in seven seasons, not having those playoff games to get even more revenue adds up as time goes on

Now I'm not saying this is the only reason, there could be other reasons, but I would think that has something to do with that

There were a lot of reasons. As Cobie said, the Sabres sucked, so there's that for starters. Fan discontent played a large part too. The attendance was still decent and the TV ratings were still strong, but the other revenues like merchandise sales and such suffered in a big way. They were also a cap-max salary team (more-or-less) that year.

I'm not totally up on the terms of the team's lease at the FN Center either, so I don't know how the shortened season may have affected things.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Perhaps someone else can confirm for me, but I don't think the American Airlines Arena (where the Heat play) is currently capable of supporting hockey. While I agree that being in the city would be helpful, if they can't play at AAA and with an arena in Sunrise already, there's no way that they manage to get a new place built.

Especially after the debacle with Marlins Park, which will end up costing taxpayers nearly $2.5B by the time it's paid off.

To highlight just how burned the Miami municipal authorities feel they got by that dicknose in the baseball stadium head office, since the completion of Marlins Park they have refused to help pay for upgrades to the Dolphins' stadium, and David Beckham is also having trouble even securing a location to build his MLS stadium even though all he's asking for is land as he has private investors to build the actual stadium.

Methinks we've seen the last taxpayer-funded barn in South Florida.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

That's an awfully narrow definition. I'm not sure what your exact standard is for successful, but 3 of the 5 teams with the lowest TV viewership (not ratings) last year posted a positive net income, including Colorado (barely positive), Dallas, and Columbus. (For the record, I used last year's TV ratings/viewership because I wanted to use the same year's data for both income and TV, so I know some of these may have changed this year as certain teams got better or worse, but the Forbes data isn't out and won't be for about 4 more months).

Ratings-wise, LA, Anaheim, NYI, and NJ are all in the bottom 5 with 3 of those 4 losing money.

On the flip-side, Buffalo had the 2nd highest rating and STL was 5th, but both lost money still.

My point being that TV viewership/ratings alone isn't that good of an indicator of success.

My point was that local TV revenue is going to be the golden egg for sports franchises in the near future. If you aren't getting the viewership and ergo the big TV rights deals like the Sens just got from TSN, you're going to be left behind as league revenue increases as a result of those deals and you aren't making the same money those teams are.

As for those two teams losing money, should be pointed out that both were spending at least near the cap and both are in economically-depressed regions of the country, but I don't know nearly enough about their situations (arena leases, what they keep from concessions etc., TV rights deals) to make an argument one way or another. People are at least paying attention to these teams on a significant scale, something a team like Tampa or Anaheim cannot claim. They may lose money now and then, but they aren't at risk of being an afterthought in their own markets anytime soon.

 

[IPostedWhat]

Ok, get rid of them now.

 

[tabascojet]

miami proper residents arent supporting a baseball team in their own back yard and you think the will go to hockey games? plus they already tried that experiment when they came into the league and it failed.

 

[Swamp Dragon]

The problem with that argument is that no one is watching Panthers games on TV either. They had the lowest cable TV audience in the league in 2012-13. Tampa Bay isn't doing "well" financially because they had better flesh and blood attendance than Florida, they're just doing better than Florida. And the two teams actually had very similar revenues in 2012-2013 anyway.

In the specific context of this particular discussion the Leafs are very successful. I mean, I don't think that anyone believes that the Leafs should/need to be relocated to another city.

Yes and let's get this straight they sure as fuck ain't making in on game revenues as shown here
The Canucks fan who bought Florida Panthers season tickets - The Globe and Mail